5 replies to this topic

[Kijiro Bugboy]

Credit for the following post goes to kwm1800 on /r/OutreachHPG, known as Lighthouse on these forums.



So, there is a sale going on with unseen mechs. Marauders seem good. I have BH2 and I am satisfied with the mech. So I looked at the quirks and configurations.

First thing I noticed was that 3R, 5M and BH2's setup are quite similar. All three have lasers on arms, ballistics on right ST. Difference is on the numbers of hardpoints. 5D is Laser + missiles, which is quite different from other three mechs.

Then I looked at the quirks. All mechs have defensive quirks, with 3R having a bit stronger defensive quirks. But it is not something crazily good (structure quirks instead of armor) so it is not really a big deal. Then I looked at the offensive quirks of the mechs I do not have.

• 3R : 20+ PPC velo, -5% PPC heat
  
• 5D : -5% E heat, -10% missile CD
  
• 5M : -5% E heat. Very weird since the number of hardpoints is basically same.

None of them really stands out. And for 3R, those PPC quirks are never going to be used since it is really a ballistics-heavy mech if one of the two types of hardpoints is going to be invested. Basically I can think 3R as a mech without any offensive quirk. -10% missile CD is barely ok, but the mech has only 2 missiles hardpoints. BH2's medium laser range and overall E range quirks are.. good, but then it really does not matter much ultimately, since just 6 mediums are not enough for a heavy mech and large portion of the mech's firepower has to come from that single ballistic hardpoint. And -5% quirks? They hardly make any difference, if at all.

In the end, the whole Marauder lineup consists of 3 very similar laser+ballistics mechs and 1 laser+missiles mech. Then I realize I really only need one mech from 3R, 5M and BH2, and 3R comes out as a clear winner distantly followed by BH2 as a second place (engine rating limit really hurts). BH2 and 5M are... really not needed at all. So out of 4 mechs, only 2 mechs are really worth having.

Let's look at the different mech, Bushwacker. X1 and X2 are virtually interchangeable, and arguably S2 is quite similar too. P1 with 6 missile hardpoints and P2 with four lasers do give some differences. Then we have a High Roller with bunch of ballistics and lasers combining X1, X2, P2 and P2 altogether.

Then look at the quirks. The offensive quirks are intentionally placed on the least/worst hardpoint types. In order words, they are not going to be utilized, they really do not exist. In the end all mechs have similar defensive quirks. I really only need High Roller (or X2 + P2 if you do not have enough MC) and P1. Rest 3~4 mechs are utterly redundant.

It is not just me who thinks there are too many redundant mechs. Look at one of the locked MWO forum topics : https://mwomercs.com...l-months-later/

You are seeing people are using word 'redundant' on mechs, and commet there are just way 'too many' mechs in the game. In other words, quite a large portion of mechs do not have any justifications to exist, other than collecting purpose.

MWO makes money by selling mechpacks, and making customers think there are too many mechs is not really an ideal situation. Now with mechpacks still follow 3-mechs, and I can still easily discern just 2 or 3 variants that are worth taking, and rest of them are nothing more than fillers.

For those who are thinking there are 'too many' 'redundant' mechs, those mechpacks' values are incredibly bad, even with added premium time and extra stuffs for early-preorder. This is one of the main reasons why people are demanding one-variant mechpack, since without anything that differentiate mechs enough, a lot of mechs are really not needed and only siphoning money from us.

I really think, unless you PGI folks are going to sell one-variant mechpacks, powerful offensive quirks have to be returned. More precisely, powerful AND diverse offensive quirks have to be added.

No, pitiful single-digit percentage buff only makes sense in mmo games, and MWO is NOT a mmo.

No, defensive quirks are not enough. Also making difference on defensive quirks are only going to force people to use mech with the most defensive quirks (just like Battlemaster 2C case.) unless offensive quirks from other mechs are worthy enough.

And no, Skill Tree does not make any difference when you give exactly same tree for all mechs, and I really do not think it is great idea to try make different tree for 300+ variants, it is too crazy with 91 nodes.

I will give you some examples; back to Marauder, you can give mechs like....

• 3R : -25% ballastic CD, +20% ballastic velo.
  
• 5D : -20% MPL heat, -20% missile CD.
  
• 5M : -70% UAC Jam chance. -15% E heat.
  
• BH2 : +30% E range. -20% Gauss cooldown.

Then all mechs suddenly have very distinct roles. 3R can use normal ACs with respectable dps. 5D with MPL and missiles, 5M with UAC dakka with energy weapons, BH2 as sniper Gauss vomit. (The numbers are just arbituary here.)

Now, even with similar hardpoints, all four mechs play differently with different weapons. Now all four mechs are worth to get/buy. People will buy mechpacks if all variants in the mechpacks are meaningful, and I can't think of other ideas other than giving them unique AND strong offensive quirks. Maybe all future mechs can have diverse hardpoints that may prevent this issue, but there are already way too many mechs with similar hardpoints.

Same goes for Clan omnimechs, which even hurt more from this problem due to omni's nature. Give each center torso unique offensive quirks, so people will assemble their own omnimechs with different configurations instead of making them into idential meta builds.

There are so many mechs in Mech Warrior Online; they are old but freely available. Yet I see tons of people with enormous amount of cbills and with dozens of empty mech bays, because it is just not worth spending time to get these mechs, customize them and play them at all. Pretty much most people's way to play this game is hoarding cbills until some good variant becomes available as cbill, then buy that variant only. I witnessed some people literally cleared their mechbays after Skill Tree landed and made a lot of old mechs much worse. I see people hesitating on buying mechpacks because there are just so many filler mechs they have to buy to get one or two decent variant.

Previously this redundant problem was not a problem because you always need at least three variants to master a mech. Now this problem is severe with just one mech.

It does not have to be this way. If you make majority of mechs worth enough to keep, people will buy mechbays, and mechbays are only available for MC. You will make people buy MCs just for mechbays if there are a lot of mechs available that are worth to have. I have no idea why this is so hard to understand.

[Kijiro Bugboy]

I don't know if it's against forum etiquette to make a post here just for the purpose of bumping up this thread, but I'm gonna do it since I think it's something that should really be considered.

[D V Devnull]

, I'm afraid I have to go strictly against this.

PGI was trying to lengthen TTK (Time To Kill) recently, as to make an error or two by a pilot in a round such that it would not be unforgiving. One of the problems happening was that someone would poke out to try and fire, and be dead before they could even have the chance to realize that they needed to back off and then do so. Such was driving people right back out of MWO, and that is why the massive Quirk nerfs have happened, because the Quirks of before were making rounds too lopsided in many cases, with one team or another just happening to come up lucky with their Mech combinations.

You have heard of something called the "Meta", right? The quote-unquote "selection and usage of the most efficient design or layout in order to have the fastest result"? Quirks were so powerful before that there was only a single Meta, and PGI wants a diverse selection of Mechs and LoadOuts fielded. The old Quirks were causing Mech variants to be pigeonholed into single roles and nothing else, because people felt limited by overly powerful Quirks. This needed to not happen anymore.

Further, there is considerable difference in the Marauders you've listed, because the 3R is unable to use JumpJets, therefore requiring a totally different strategy to be implemented. On top of that, each has variances of where the HardPoints are located, and the types, as well as what can potentially be done with them. People weren't thinking outside the box enough with how things used to be, and PGI's changes so far have seemed to defray that a bit, as I've finally been seeing some unusual designs out there. Mech variants are no longer as redundant as some would dare try to claim them to be, because each pilot has their different style of play.

Long and short of it, let's not avoid undoing the positive change in the atmosphere that MWO's taken in this regard. Let us NOT run MWO back into the "one mistake and you're dead" dark ages where TTK was too short. Most certainly of all, let us avoid causing pigeonholed want of only one variant ever from a given chassis.

~Mr. D. V. "Normally NEVER one to 'White Knight' for PGI... but this was a rare exception... this thread triggered me." Devnull

[Kijiro Bugboy]

D V Devnull, on 26 October 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

, I'm afraid I have to go strictly against this.

PGI was trying to lengthen TTK (Time To Kill) recently, as to make an error or two by a pilot in a round such that it would not be unforgiving. One of the problems happening was that someone would poke out to try and fire, and be dead before they could even have the chance to realize that they needed to back off and then do so. Such was driving people right back out of MWO, and that is why the massive Quirk nerfs have happened, because the Quirks of before were making rounds too lopsided in many cases, with one team or another just happening to come up lucky with their Mech combinations.

You have heard of something called the "Meta", right? The quote-unquote "selection and usage of the most efficient design or layout in order to have the fastest result"? Quirks were so powerful before that there was only a single Meta, and PGI wants a diverse selection of Mechs and LoadOuts fielded. The old Quirks were causing Mech variants to be pigeonholed into single roles and nothing else, because people felt limited by overly powerful Quirks. This needed to not happen anymore.

Further, there is considerable difference in the Marauders you've listed, because the 3R is unable to use JumpJets, therefore requiring a totally different strategy to be implemented. On top of that, each has variances of where the HardPoints are located, and the types, as well as what can potentially be done with them. People weren't thinking outside the box enough with how things used to be, and PGI's changes so far have seemed to defray that a bit, as I've finally been seeing some unusual designs out there. Mech variants are no longer as redundant as some would dare try to claim them to be, because each pilot has their different style of play.

Long and short of it, let's not avoid undoing the positive change in the atmosphere that MWO's taken in this regard. Let us NOT run MWO back into the "one mistake and you're dead" dark ages where TTK was too short. Most certainly of all, let us avoid causing pigeonholed want of only one variant ever from a given chassis.

~Mr. D. V. "Normally NEVER one to 'White Knight' for PGI... but this was a rare exception... this thread triggered me." Devnull

I suppose it is just personal preference as to what should be done to diversify chassis/variants. It's really an argument of variant versatility vs. variant specialization. Both systems affect the meta positively and negatively in different ways.

The current system is better for customization and diversity, but in reality it actually makes builds feel less unique because there are no serious quirks to take advantage of to set yourself apart with. Meta is also not specific to quirks; often chassis shape and hardpoints is more meaningful to the meta, which is why it still exists. Usually strong offensive quirks were placed on otherwise underperforming chassis, therefore actually diversifying the meta.

And if you ask me, I like shorter TTK; it rewards people who know what they're doing. But I suppose player inclusion (in the manner of noob and mistake forgiveness ) and sim combat as opposed to shooter combat are what's more important for this game anyways.

Edited by Asriel Dreemur, 31 October 2017 - 08:51 AM.

[ET Penang]

D V Devnull, on 26 October 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

, I'm afraid I have to go strictly against this.

Long and short of it, let's not avoid undoing the positive change in the atmosphere that MWO's taken in this regard. Let us NOT run MWO back into the "one mistake and you're dead" dark ages where TTK was too short. Most certainly of all, let us avoid causing pigeonholed want of only one variant ever from a given chassis.

With what PGI has done done so far - In my recent plays, the TTK has not really increased, but went the other way around....die even faster if one mistake made.

PGI can do whatever changes, but no doubt that good players adapt and improvise even faster...

Penang.

[Kijiro Bugboy]

ET Penang, on 31 October 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

With what PGI has done done so far - In my recent plays, the TTK has not really increased, but went the other way around....die even faster if one mistake made.

PGI can do whatever changes, but no doubt that good players adapt and improvise even faster...

Penang.

This. There's always going to be a meta no matter what you do, since not every Mech is exactly the same. Remember that the strong quirks were on the worse builds, not the better ones. It actually helped balance, even if it made 'Mechs tailored to specific roles.