55 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

I'm not going to get into whether the Urbanmech is OP or UP because I don't care.

What I will get into however is how incredibly stupid it is to have such absurdly high armor quirks on a mech on every component, much less a 30 ton light mech that ends up having armor comparable to mechs that are twice as heavy as it, and that's not even getting into its other gratuitous weapon quirks.

If you want to run a light mech known for carrying big ballistics then you can deal with the fact that big ballistics on small mechs is going to be inherently inefficient; expecting Urbies to have the level of quirks that they have and thinking it's fair is just insane.

Mechs like the Urbanmech are a perfect example of why quirks are a complete disaster and those sorts of quirks can't be removed soon enough, which I thought was going to be a priority for PGI after Chris Lowrey's posts about the issue only to see no meaningful progress on that whatsoever, but I'm not surprised that it hasn't happened either since the management are clowns and clearly somebody (i.e a particular person that I won't name but can be easily guessed who it is) needs to be fired before some actually good balancing work gets done.

[The6thMessenger]

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

Apparently you cant make your own conclusion from what I said so I will do it for you.

No, i did made my own conclusion. It's just not the same as yours.

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

Its is op because in current meta it performs better than other lights due to armor-hitbox-size combination.

It's not OP because it's a slow IS mech, and in the meta that's a big deal. Don't be silly, other lights have the hitbox-size combination too, they simply have speed where the Urbanmech have armor.

And as far as I'm concerned, I've yet to see the global stats to know whether they ARE overperforming.

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

Here you go, no need to thank me.

Not thanking you wouldn't be polite.

Thank you for making a fool of yourself for our amusement.

Daggett, on 31 August 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

You know that speed is armor too? Any light going 140+ kph will last at least as long as an urbie just because it gets hit much less. On top of that it gets into good firing positions much faster/easier and can therefore dish out the same damage with fewer firepower.

The fact that the urbie behaves like a small medium does not make it more powerful than a typical light.

^This. Exactly this. Just because Urbie fails expectation from a fragile light, that doesn't mean it's op, it's just different light with different strength.

Pjwned, on 31 August 2017 - 02:30 AM, said:

I'm not going to get into whether the Urbanmech is OP or UP because I don't care.

What I will get into however is how incredibly stupid it is to have such absurdly high armor quirks on a mech on every component, much less a 30 ton light mech that ends up having armor comparable to mechs that are twice as heavy as it, and that's not even getting into its other gratuitous weapon quirks.

If you want to run a light mech known for carrying big ballistics then you can deal with the fact that big ballistics on small mechs is going to be inherently inefficient; expecting Urbies to have the level of quirks that they have and thinking it's fair is just insane.

Mechs like the Urbanmech are a perfect example of why quirks are a complete disaster and those sorts of quirks can't be removed soon enough, which I thought was going to be a priority for PGI after Chris Lowrey's posts about the issue only to see no meaningful progress on that whatsoever, but I'm not surprised that it hasn't happened either since the management are clowns and clearly somebody (i.e a particular person that I won't name but can be easily guessed who it is) needs to be fired before some actually good balancing work gets done.

Problem of pin-point accuracy stemming from an FPS.

Watching HBS Battletech gamplay, i saw mechs without the same level of armor as we have, yet it has ridiculously high TTK in comparison, in hyperbolic fashion -- killing them took forever.

MWO is not Battletech though, of course there will be discrepancies of mechanics for the sake of balance. Armor quirks are stupidly high, granted, but is the Urbanmech OP? Not really, in fact it needs it to be relevant aside from being just a joke. Hell, other mechs also have ridiculously high armor quirks just to be relevant, lets face it the King Crab was just a fodder before the CT armor quirks were added. And with the Annihilator's speed, it would have been just as a fodder as the King Crab.

Armor quirks like that would go away if the TTK could be adjusted on some other approach. But until that time where the mechanics were changed, until we can raise the TTK some other way, until that MWO isn't an FPS with pin-point accuracy, i don't see any way around the ridiculously high armor quirks.

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 02:26 AM, said:

It was the case back in the days of lag-shields and bad hitreg, yeah. Now its much less so. Just duel an urbie in 150kph light and tell how much your speed has helepd you.

Ever fought War_Glaivez?

I've also yet to hear a good reason why a 1v1 duel would correlate into ultimate decisions of OP/UP. The game isn't also just built on lights fighting lights alone. Maybe the Urbanmech would par lesser against heavier foes? Maybe an ACH could better murder that Dire Wolf?

1v1 isn't representative of 4v4s, 8v8s, and 12v12s. And lets face it, even the Urbanmech thrives on flankings, especially when the enemy is preoccupied with your allies.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 August 2017 - 02:50 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Scout Derek, on 30 August 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

Urbanmech is the 1v1 king. it can kill most mediums and heavies with ease in a 1v1.

Wait, is this sarcasm?

[The6thMessenger]

Dakota1000, on 31 August 2017 - 02:52 AM, said:

Wait, is this sarcasm?

To be fair, it's not a push over, especially being good at spreading damage. That K9 can zombie. Hell you can't get behind the Urbie due to 360 degree turn.



Not saying that those are the definitive ACH performance. But it does highlight that basic "go behind and enemy" isn't as effective to the Urbanmech.

[Pjwned]

The6thMessenger, on 31 August 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

Problem of pin-point accuracy stemming from an FPS.

Watching HBS Battletech gamplay, i saw mechs without the same level of armor as we have, yet it has ridiculously high TTK in comparison, in hyperbolic fashion -- killing them took forever.

MWO is not Battletech though, of course there will be discrepancies of mechanics for the sake of balance. Armor quirks are stupidly high, granted, but is the Urbanmech OP? Not really, in fact it needs it to be relevant aside from being just a joke. Hell, other mechs also have ridiculously high armor quirks just to be relevant, lets face it the King Crab was just a fodder before the CT armor quirks were added. And with the Annihilator's speed, it would have been just as a fodder as the King Crab.

Armor quirks like that would go away if the TTK could be adjusted on some other approach. But until that time where the mechanics were changed, until we can raise the TTK some other way, until that MWO isn't an FPS with pin-point accuracy, i don't see any way around the ridiculously high armor quirks.

I honestly think those quirks should just be removed anyways, just force the issue by removing the crutch of quirks because they shouldn't be there regardless of whether or not proper fixes come in to replace the crutches.

But you're absolutely right about adjusting TTK through convergence (and, as a note, there's plenty of other methods too but those all mean PGI doing some actual work so no wonder it hasn't happened) because it's so obviously such a serious issue and all these garbage band-aid fixes don't do **** to actually fix the real issues that should've been addressed years ago.

[Clownwarlord]

The urbie only does so well because of its shield. You know ... that shield called there are better targets to shoot at for example the Marauder IIC or Battlemaster or just about everything before you shoot the Urbie.

[The6thMessenger]

Pjwned, on 31 August 2017 - 02:56 AM, said:

I honestly think those quirks should just be removed anyways, just force the issue by removing the crutch of quirks because they shouldn't be there regardless of whether or not proper fixes come in to replace the crutches.

But removing them at a time were we haven't solved the TTK problem would just hurt the Urbanmech, all for the sake of virtues. I think that quirks are getting ridiculous too, but performance should come first, because doing so would just result into an even more broken game (not that 1 mech is THAT big of a deal, but it's still broken by a bit).

Pjwned, on 31 August 2017 - 02:56 AM, said:

But you're absolutely right about adjusting TTK through convergence (and, as a note, there's plenty of other methods too but those all mean PGI doing some actual work so no wonder it hasn't happened) because it's so obviously such a serious issue and all these garbage band-aid fixes don't do **** to actually fix the real issues that should've been addressed years ago.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 August 2017 - 03:13 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Urbies benefit from a few things, because they're an atypical light. People who treat them like other lights get burned.

It's a light that plays like a lower-end medium. People often fail to adjust to that, but it also means people normally uncomfortable with the zipzipzip of light play can click in a Urbie, just like how some Clan pilots who will never work in an Arctic Cheetah can be just fine in a Kit Fox or Cougar.

[Nema Nabojiv]

The6thMessenger, on 31 August 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

I've also yet to hear a good reason why a 1v1 duel would correlate into ultimate decisions of OP/UP.

There is a thing called 'context'. If you know what it means you'll be able to read the post I was answering to and find your reason

[The6thMessenger]

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 03:18 AM, said:

There is a thing called 'context'. If you know what it means you'll be able to read the post I was answering to and find your reason

Hmm, the answer i found is that, it's not. If i added your bias, then i get "it is", but having your bias in the equation wouldn't be a good metric.

There's also such a thing as Burden of Proof. Also Validity and Soundness.

But if all you have is that, "It's op because it's amazing at 1v1 duels", then you really don't have anything.

Again, i have yet to hear a good reason why a 1v1 duel would correlate into ultimate decisions of OP/UP. Because again, 1v1 is not the whole game.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 August 2017 - 03:28 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

You cant read two posts, got it.

[The6thMessenger]

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 03:30 AM, said:

You cant read two posts, got it.

Well, if you're that smart. Explain it anyways. Shouldn't be a problem, spell it out for us.

[Daggett]

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 02:26 AM, said:

It was the case back in the days of lag-shields and bad hitreg, yeah. Now its much less so. Just duel an urbie in 150kph light and tell how much your speed has helepd you.

You don't duel an urbie in a 150kph light, you let him duel with another mech and then attack his tasty rear.
Fast lights use their mobility to create unfair fights, they are too fragile for duels against better armored mechs. Just because a locust or spider can't expect to win a duel against an urbie, it does not mean it is less powerful. Fast lights have other capabilities than dueling.

And while lag-shield and hit-reg issues are better now it's still not easy to reliably hit an 165kph locust that moves unpredictable. Even top pilots will miss some shots against good light pilots in non-duel situations, so the speed=armor equation is still correct.

Edited by Daggett, 31 August 2017 - 03:39 AM.

[Charles Sennet]

Scout Derek, on 30 August 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

Urbanmech is the 1v1 king. it can kill most mediums and heavies with ease in a 1v1.

And that evidences a problem. Simply too much armor/superior hitboxes on that thing and not a condition unique to it among IS mechs (looking at you Bushwacker and Assassin).

[Nema Nabojiv]

Daggett, on 31 August 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

You don't duel an urbie in a 150kph light, you let him duel with another mech and then attack his tasty rear.

Daggett, on 31 August 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

Even top pilots will miss some shots against good light pilots in non-duel situations, so the speed=armor equation is still correct.

No no no.
The speed=armor ecuation looks like this - you duel urbie and you can use your speed to get on par with its armor.

OR

You dont duel urbie because you cannot use your speed to get the same survivability as armor gives. And it clearly makes speed != armor.

The secong case proves that urbie's armor (read: quirks-size-hitbox) gives it more advantages than other light's have with all their speed.

Edited by Nema Nabojiv, 31 August 2017 - 03:54 AM.

[Daggett]

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 03:54 AM, said:

No no no.
The speed=armor ecuation looks like this - you duel urbie and you can use your speed to get on par with its armor.

OR

You dont duel urbie because you cannot use your speed to get the same survivability as armor gives. And it clearly makes speed != armor.

The secong case proves that urbie's armor (read: quirks-size-hitbox) gives it more advantages than other light's have with all their speed.

You focus too much on duels. Let me give you a realistic example:

An urbie and a locust both want to move from Cover A to Cover B. While doing so an enemy gauss sniper appears and shoots them from 600m distance.
The urbie gets hit with a high probability because he can't move faster than a medium, so he likely loses 15 armor.
The locust however has a much lower probability to get hit by the same sniper, so his speed likely prevented a 15 dmg hit.

So in the end, the urbie 'tanked' 15dmg with his splendid armor, while the locust 'evaded' the same damage.

And apart from this: Imagine you are the gauss sniper. Which target would you even shoot at, the locust or the urbie?
Most players will shoot the slower target, the low-hanging fruit. That's why an urbie with it's medium-mech speed also needs the armor of a medium-mech to compensate for the lack of other light's evade capabilities.

Edited by Daggett, 31 August 2017 - 04:17 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 03:54 AM, said:

No no no.
The speed=armor ecuation looks like this - you duel urbie and you can use your speed to get on par with its armor.

OR

You dont duel urbie because you cannot use your speed to get the same survivability as armor gives. And it clearly makes speed != armor.

There's other factor in play, such as the Urbanmech has low engine rating that a good amount of it's weight can be invested on firepower instead. How can you ascertain that the armor rating is the culprit, when you couldn't make a controlled environment? (You don't.)

While the Spider, not only there's unequal hard points and the sizes resulting in being incapable of having the same fire power, a good portion of the tonnage would go to the heavy engine with high rating so even the same amount of hardpoint, it would probably sacrifice those speed anyways. At such point, it would really be the Spider not having enough hardpoints, than the Urbanmech just having too much armor.

But why would you choose to only measure the Urbie at such a metric alone? 1v1 Duels? What about the things it can't do that light mechs can? Isn't it possible that the Urbanmech is just intended to tank, and the others rely on being more strategic and elusive? Are we really just going to measure this by what average players do so thoughtlessly, than skilled ones doing strategically?

You also have yet to spell it out for us, why would a 1v1 be the ultimate metric to judge a mech to be OP or UP.

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 03:54 AM, said:

The secong case proves that urbie's armor (read: quirks-size-hitbox) gives it more advantages than other light's have with all their speed.

Not necessarily, it just tells us that Urbie would par better on a duel and tanking. Against sniping, flanking, capturing -- basically other kinds of combat, speed would be a lot better. I mean, what is your armor good for if all you're just getting is scratches?

Advantages are only worth with the strategy you employ them. If you're face-tanking, of course armor would do you best. But at the case of hit-and-run, flanking, and other stuff, speed would serve them better.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 August 2017 - 04:24 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Daggett, on 31 August 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

You focus too much on duels. Let me give you a realistic example:

An urbie and a locust both want to move from Cover A to Cover B. While doing so an enemy gauss sniper appears and shoots them from 600m distance.
The urbie gets hit with a high probability because he can't move faster than a medium, so he likely loses 15 armor.
The locust however has a much lower probability to get hit by the same sniper, so his speed likely prevented a 15 dmg hit.

So in the end, the urbie 'tanked' 15dmg with his splendid armor, while the locust 'evaded' the same damage.

And apart from this: Imagine you are the gauss sniper. Which target would you even shoot at, the locust or the urbie?
Most players will shoot the slower target, the low-hanging fruit. That's why an urbie with it's medium-mech speed also needs the armor of a medium-mech to compensate for the lack of other light's evade capabilities.

I focus on accurate tests to prove something is right or wrong because thats what I do for living and I believe this approach can work in Very Important Robot Game.
Now to make test as accurate as possible you have to exclude as much random factors as you possibly can. And that means duel, and preferrably in a same weight category.

What you do is you state that speed=armor and then you throw a number of unaccountable variables so in the end it looks like:
speed + potatoes * cover = armor + gauss snipers + nascar.

That's not accurate and will never be.

It is theoretically possible to take all those things into account and conclude whether something's OP or not, but that requires access to statistics of how mech performs, then you need to build a median, then compare it to a median of other light mechs performance and all that for some considerable period of time.
We dont have all this stuff, so what we are left with is simple tests of 'this vs that' and our overall impressions on certain mech's performance.

[The6thMessenger]

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

I focus on accurate tests to prove something is right or wrong because thats what I do for living and I believe this approach can work in Very Important Robot Game.

And how accurate would a 1v1 portray a proper 12v12?

Don't bull **** us, a 1v1 isn't an accurate test.

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

Now to make test as accurate as possible you have to exclude as much random factors as you possibly can. And that means duel, and preferably in a same weight category.

And the same hit-boxes and loadout of weapons as well, except one gets armor, the other gets speed. Which we can't do.

Nema Nabojiv, on 31 August 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

What you do is you state that speed=armor and then you throw a number of unaccountable variables so in the end it looks like:
speed + potatoes * cover = armor + gauss snipers + nascar.

That's not accurate and will never be.

And what you do is just show that the Urbie is good at duel and tanking. And then equate that in better at everything else versus other lights therefore OP, which is just not true.

We still have to account for those "unaccountable variables" because they are part of the game, it's part of strategy to make use of them. Mechs use their strengths, and the weaknesses of their enemies, both to the pilot's advantage.

So really if your argument is that Urbanmech is OP, on a 1v1, played thoughtlessly, then you don't have anything because those are not representative of the game.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 August 2017 - 04:53 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

The6thMessenger, on 31 August 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

And how accurate would a 1v1 portray a proper 12v12?

Don't bull **** us, a 1v1 isn't an accurate test.

Dont even try. You either too biased or not smart enough for this stuff.