143 replies to this topic

[Rifleman89]

It's a design flaw IMHO, that really needs fixing.
Ask yourself--how does a light have as many slots for the SAME size weapons and SAME SIZE engine as a heavy that is twice its size and weight, in general????

Compare a SDR-5K and a RFL-3N with the same engine and weapons loadouts:
XL 195, Gauss + 2t ammo, Lt Ferro, Endo, DHS

I know, bad design for both, BUT possible. The Spider has to have a bit less than max armor and weighs in at 30t and sports a 105.3 kph speed. The Rifleman can take full armor, weighs in at 37.9t and only goes 52.7kph. Hmmmm........

A 20% Weight increase on the same engine cuts speed in half? Yes, bigger mech, more structure, and more fibers to move said parts, but it's weight that matters right? OK that's really a side point, the real point is a Gauss rifle and engine that are the same size, but take up less space, somehow in the light mech.

Notice ALL mechs currently sport 66 slots. The slots are the 'same size' when it comes to all components, weapons, engines, ammo, etc. -- ALL!?!?! How is this possible???? A skinny, tiny, puny arm and hand of the Spider takes the same weight and size GR and 1t of ammo than the bigger, beefier Rifleman? How does the smaller arm and actuators move a weapon half its overall weight, much less stay standing?? True, structural and armor enhancements are percentage based, but the effect to space and size remains the same. Are you starting to see it?

If I pack a rather large XL into a light it's gonna have to spill over into the side torsos more than the 3 it takes in the double size/weight heavy-- it's the same engine!! A medium laser needs to take up 2 spots in a light or reduce the number in the arm slots to 6 not 12, then the same weapon "fits" on the light the way it should. It can't be half as big and all the weight and do the dame damage??. Same reduction needed for CT and side torsos, and even the head. The same seat and controls for a Raven are all you need for an Atlas, but it has the room for a bigger targeting computer, its triple the size!!

Mediums might need to loose a few slots and certain IS Light engines that are bigger might have to take 3 spaces in the torso, like XLs, Assaults gain some space. The easier way, of course is to revamp weapon sizes and weights, but that won't fix the problem with equal space for all mechs. Perhaps a combination of the 2??

They"ve erroneously made the number of spaces for differing weight classes the same and it"s adding to the Light dominance we see today. This would fix this. Make space with weight matter again. I know this is HUGE for PGI to consider, but it's the right thing to do....

Thanks for reading this.

Edited by Rifleman89, 05 September 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Prototelis]

lol, yeah sure bud. The 2% of people playing lights are totally dominating the playing field.

[Y E O N N E]

You do realize that Lights are the only weight class in the game that are hard-counterable, yes?

[Battlemaster56]

I'm completely lost from reading this, as you jump to many points to fast and ah I got a headache from trying to figure this out. But whatcha saying here is the lights have the same amount of slots as a heavy and your solution to shaft lights is to reduce their slots by half even tho theirs not many ballistic option for lights atm other than mg family.

Also shaft mediums to because why not???


Ah don't what to say about that.

Also I think this meme is pretty much fit your situation.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 05 September 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[Alex Morgaine]

the xl 195 gauss is not possible on a spider. it has no JJ, and 2.93 tons after gun and engine. needs 3 for DHSx3. bah stupid smurfy not stripping all armor.
guess its too small to carry the big gun and engine XD

also its just an artifact of mech building that has been stable since it's inception, if they revamped the whole game they'd probably look at that aspect as well. There is an optional rule in one of the books that adjusts the number of crit slots to mechs based on size, something like -2 arm and -1 side torso for lights, -1 arm for med, +1 torso for assaults or something. but its not tourney friendly and only for non stock mechs for obvious reasons. also an armless/vestigal arm rule for mechs with no lower arm actuator/hand or anything in said arms can remove the part completely, save the armor weight [something we do in game half the time anyway], and just rule any arm hits miss, but then you lose the arm for crits and shielding, and again, I think its for non stock mechs, or mechs that have the quirk.

I'm going to say the above was more strawman in essence after trying to even build the spider.

Edited by Alex Morgaine, 05 September 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[LordNothing]

lights have been dead for a very long time. a new meta appears to change that and people want it stamped out? i say lights deserve their day in the sun. machine guns should have been buffed a long time ago.

[Ghogiel]

Lights aren't dominating anything besides potatoes. In a real match where there are proper mechs and the comp is tighter, they aren't really dominating per say, but they are huge threat non the less.

Additionally the ACH is just using a weap that is going to get nerfed, probably this next patch. So things will level back out over the next weeks in regards to MGs.

[MechaBattler]

The slots being the same is strange from a realistic point of view. But from an inter-weight class balancing mechanism, it makes sense.

As it stands the slot limitations keep Assaults from being too good. And offer extra weight in FF, Endo, XLs for lighter mechs that lack tonnage to fill slots. It's a small self regulating system. Besides bigger mechs can get bigger engines for more internal heatsinks.

And if we were going for 'realism' in mechs. I would say they would also need to increase the weight per point of armor due to the fact that heavies/assaults have a bigger surface area and therefore each point of armor should weigh more.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

They"ve erroneously made the number of spaces for differing weight classes the same

Protip: That's exactly how the game works. Light robots get the same critspaces as everyone else. Straight from tabletop. The reason lights are "OP" is because once any mechanism exists to make them a similar threat to other unit types, people start whinging about it.

I encourage anyone at that level to get strapped into a Streakcrow and start harvesting MG boats, random Commandos, what have you. You'll find the best weapon a light has is low situational awareness, and most heavies (or a Streakboat) who can aim can make a light's life miserable in seconds. Or a mediums. In fact, I make it my calling to bully anything under 60 tons I can find with a liberal slathering of guided missiles and laser fire...because of people like you who can't pay attention to anything going over 90kph unless it's shoved up your aft armor.

I know. Tracking lights is hard, tunnel vision is easy, and that's why that Mist Lynx has eight LMGs going through your giant robot's colon looking for corn.

[Rifleman89]

Go ahead and flame all you want. Lights packing weapons they way they can is the problem you are ignoring. How about countering the intent of the post, the design flaw? Sure it's easier to post a few quick, snippy comments that you think will keep me in the mech bay and off the battlefield, but you're wrong about that and aren't addressing a glaring problem. I didn't say I was having trouble with them nor their play style and need on the battlefield. You've addressed something entirely different and many in game and in the forums have commented about this. I was curious about the issue and was only pointing out why they can carry weapons loadouts that are "unreal"......because they are. Prove me wrong on that point...

[Kaeb Odellas]

OP does have a point, misguided as he is about Light "dominance". It really doesn't make sense that a 20 ton locust has more available crit slots than a 100 ton Atlas. It also doesn't make sense that all engines of the same type take up the same amount of space regardless of weight. Lots of things in the IP don't make a whole lot of sense.

Most of these nonsensical bits are a result of the IP's origin as a tabletop game that needs to streamline some of this stuff to keep the game from being too unwieldy to play. Since MWO isn't a tabletop game, I don't think it should have to strictly adhere to Battletech's construction rules. I wouldn't mind seeing variations in engine size or component crit slots. It would be interesting to give mechs individual speed formulas, so 2 50-tonners with the same engine don't necessarily have the same top speed.

Properly balancing a change like this would be a nightmare this late in the game's development, so it's probably not going to happen. But still, I think it would have been a good idea 5 years ago.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 05 September 2017 - 10:21 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

I'm just waiting for the Piranha, which will have a variant allowing them to strap on obscene numbers of micro lasers.

There is nothing unreal about the payload lights carry now. Not at all. They're generally very low-tonnage, short-to-very-short range...or perhaps one big gun that even a medium will outshoot.

The difference is the light is mobile enough to get those light, close range guns to effectively bear on weak points slower designs cannot. This is somehow OP?

[Y E O N N E]

Rifleman89, on 05 September 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

only pointing out why they can carry weapons loadouts that are "unreal"......because they are. Prove me wrong on that point...

Okay.

How many double heatsinks can a Locust with six MedLas carry with a 100-rated engine? How many does a Blackjack carry on a 225 rated engine with the same weapons? How much armor does the Locust gain by being that slow?

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 05 September 2017 - 10:18 AM.

[Dr Hobo]

...Wut?

Do you..do you even drive lights?

If they were OP..don't you think that folks would be flocking to them like they do heavies? Folks are only abusing lights for now because PGI can't into balancing MGs and accidentally made really strong,well,strongish lights. They're only good if people are already open,or aren't watching their backs.

Lights are like LRMs. And have far too many counters to even really bother listing. Plus,if youre a decent shot,those 20 points of armor,are going to be gone and theres going to be another kill mark scratched into the side of your Atlai's head.

[LordNothing]

lights use their crit slots differently, usually to make up for lack of tonnage. efficiency gained in endo, ferro, etc is less important on larger mechs and will actually be switched off so that bigger weapons and more sinks can be fitted. at the assault end of the spectrum an upgrade as good as endo can be left out because you have more tonnage than slots available.

[Ibrandul Mike]

Rifleman89, on 05 September 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Go ahead and flame all you want. Lights packing weapons they way they can is the problem you are ignoring. How about countering the intent of the post, the design flaw? Sure it's easier to post a few quick, snippy comments that you think will keep me in the mech bay and off the battlefield, but you're wrong about that and aren't addressing a glaring problem. I didn't say I was having trouble with them nor their play style and need on the battlefield. You've addressed something entirely different and many in game and in the forums have commented about this. I was curious about the issue and was only pointing out why they can carry weapons loadouts that are "unreal"......because they are. Prove me wrong on that point...

I am a small person... I can use a machine gun. Bigger people can use a machine gun more efficient... they can most likely carry more ammunition and so on.

Take two cars, one bigger and one smaller. Both could use the same engine. The bigger one would most likely be slower. Still they can use the same engine.

That just leaves the crit space. It could be something like "bigger mechs need more muscles" and so on... the ammunition needs to be routed differently through the mech ... Stuff like that.

We can argue about realism in a fantasy/sci-fi setting... Or we can let it go.
Lights can carry less weight. For them weight is the main factor, while for assaults crit space is the main factor. And yes, lights can be annoying (or fun as hell). But especially the MG variants depend on your armor being openend up. It is not that much fun to try to open up an assault without armor holes... but different topic.
Lights are still the least played group (at least at the times I play). They should be the highest, if they were so dominating (which should be not only about being superior but also being more used).

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 05 September 2017 - 10:23 AM.

[Exilyth]

Reduced critical slots by weight class is an advanced rule in the TT which is both experimental and optional.

Try mounting 2 AC20 on a light.

Edited by Exilyth, 05 September 2017 - 10:26 AM.

[Iron Heel]

Was OP that Kodiac I caught 400m behind that didnt stick with the group, that didn't back in to the rocks, that couldn't hit me effectively with those ACs/LBXs, that didn't call for LRM support, that didn't twist and spread the damage or have any back armor to speak of.. etc. etc. etc..?

Was that you?

Sorry.

[MustrumRidcully]

Your title seems to have a few grammatical mistake. It should be:

"Where are light mechs dominating?"

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

Oh god....

He's a sizist.

You sir make me sick with your unabashed hatred of little mechs. Get with the times you mech persecuter. It's the 31st century. There is no place here for that kind of backwards thinking...

Edited by ZippySpeedMonkey, 05 September 2017 - 10:40 AM.