22 replies to this topic

[Tier5 Kerensky]

https://mwomercs.com...ng-restrictions

So kinda as that, tier 1 should not see tier 3. And I was just in a game with Donald Kerensky Trump who is tier 3.

It does make you think a bit how really tightened the MM really is. But at least the limit of 1 tier separation is not a hard limit.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 13 September 2017 - 04:51 AM.

[Lykaon]

How long was your match search ? The system is set up to attempt to draw players from within a one tier range but it widens the search to two tier range after a certain amount of time has past.

So ideally the MM will create a match with players only within one tier of eachother and if that is not possible the MM will include a few as possible players within 2 tiers of the highest tier player in the match.

[Kiiyor]

Might be a release valve somewhere that released. How long did you have to wait to fight?

[Pineapple Salad]

We still do not know the specifics of the match maker algorithm. But because Tier 2 can match with tiers 1-3, maybe if it's a "tier2" match, a tier 1 could end up in same match with a tier 3.

[Asym]

I'm not sure the 'new' MM test is working??

I've seen Tier 1 players and I'm a 3....on more than one occasion....

I'm beginning to wonder if the tiers should be arranged by w/l records and then, if you had to, a damage-number of matches calculation???
Sometimes you get a Tier 2 or 3 that has been here for years playing a new tier 3 or 4 and it's not even a close contest.... I have not broke 150 in damage in 11 games (w/o Arty or AS;) nor have survived a match; nor, have the teams I've been on seen a win...... Stomps or almost stomps mostly and dead quiet VOIP. Even when our "team players" out numbered the other teams "team players" 11 to 2.......

Look, I'm a below avg potato and freely admit it but the gameplay itself seems to have gone to heck..... There have been several times players have "just walked off the map", refused to play the game (as in the circle in Dom or the points in conquest) or DC'd in frustration? Haven't seen that in a while....

What are your thoughts???

[Maker L106]

Tier 3 player here and I've seen tier 1 guys before. Hell I've seen them before AND after the change. I like that though. Helps me out a lot especially if they're chatty. Would really prefer the matchmaker to do less on individual player skill and more on tonnage... but that's me.

[Paigan]

Pineapple Salad, on 13 September 2017 - 05:34 AM, said:

We still do not know the specifics of the match maker algorithm. But because Tier 2 can match with tiers 1-3, maybe if it's a "tier2" match, a tier 1 could end up in same match with a tier 3.

Sounds logical. On the other hand, they moreless excluded exactely that in the news post: T1 matches with T1 and T2.
If a T2 match can "match in" T1 and T3, their table is false.
But then again, it seems to be false anyway ...

I'm confused, now .

Edited by Paigan, 13 September 2017 - 05:49 AM.

[Athom83]

Paigan, on 13 September 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Sounds logical. On the other hand, they moreless excluded exactely that in the news post: T1 matches with T1 and T2.
If a T2 match can "match in" T1 and T3, their table is false.
But then again, it seems to be false anyway ...

I'm confused, now .

Think of it this way; Its like the WoT system of tiers. Each tier of vehicle can match with one +/- 2. When you are a T6 and there are T5s and T7s, then you are fighting from the middle. When you are fighting T8s, you are the low end. When you fight T4s, you are the upper. At T10, you only have a -2 matching, meaning you can fight anywhere from T8 to T10, while T9s are able to fight T7 to T10.

Translating to MWO, there should only be 2 different tiers in a match. T1s will only fight between T1 and T2. T2s can be either the high or the low by fighting T1s OR T3s. Et cetera.

[Dread Render]

Would you all be against a more flexible MM?
Lets say one that will accept 6 per team or greater.
So you would be in game almost immediately but the teams would be anywhere between 6v6 and 12v12.
Personally I think it would add the the excitement of each game.

[Mawai]

Pineapple Salad, on 13 September 2017 - 05:34 AM, said:

We still do not know the specifics of the match maker algorithm. But because Tier 2 can match with tiers 1-3, maybe if it's a "tier2" match, a tier 1 could end up in same match with a tier 3.

It is probably THIS. (assuming that they only tweaked the code of the existing matchmaker).

If there is a match that starts forming as Tier 2 (since the longest waiting player in the queue happens to be tier2) ... then after a certain length of time that match will expand its search parameters ... likely to encompass Tier 1 to 3 in order to get the match off the ground. What this means is that a tier1 player could enter the queue and find themselves pulled into this tier2 match after only a short wait since the tier1 player fits the requirements for the tier2 match. I suspect the matchmaker does not have additional logic to limit the match to either tier2+3 or tier1+2 since that would require extra logic to track which players had been added to the match and then feed that information back to limit search parameters depending on whether the first non-tier2 selected happened to be tier1 or tier3.

In any case, it is still closer tier matching than the previous incarnation and tier1 should never end up in a match with tier 4 or 5. Depending on the match composition, a tier3 could end up in a match with any tier but not at the same time. The match should be one of tier3 alone, tier 1-3, tier 2-4 or tier 3-5 ... assuming that there is no feedback logic to limit what other players could be selected for the match.

The other thing to keep in mind is that people on the boundary between tiers can go back a forth a few times depending on their specific outcomes. If someone is near a threshold it can be difficult to judge exactly which tier they were in when the match formed unless you can reliably ask them. (Forum labels and other sources may not be reliable in this case.)

[Sjorpha]

Pineapple Salad, on 13 September 2017 - 05:34 AM, said:

We still do not know the specifics of the match maker algorithm. But because Tier 2 can match with tiers 1-3, maybe if it's a "tier2" match, a tier 1 could end up in same match with a tier 3.

That seems unlikely, I think a more plausible explanation is that the matchmaker fails to meet the set goals within the time limit and therefore opens up to more tiers, and that this happens quite often due to low population.

Keep in mind that the release valves might have been opened even if your personal wait time is short, because you may be one of the last players pulled into that match.

[kesmai]

i am really not one that is defending PGI.
quite the opposite.
but in this case i got to say:
As soon as pgi will close the valves in favour for tier tied MM the salt whine and tears in this forum will fill oceans.
exactly those guys will biatsh around that are now calling for this, and just because they WILL have to wait 2-6 minute to get a drop.
some people want the fish and the penny.
they can not be helped.

[El Bandito]

Think of it like this. Before T1s could match with T2s and T3s, and when MM valve loosens, with T4s. Now T1s can be only matched with T2s, and when MM loosens, with T3s.

[Kalimaster]

I'm seeing more even play matches now, and not so many stomps.

[Dee Eight]

They should just pitch the tiers from the calculation, especially since they altered how match scores are calculated months ago. Once they changed the formula, their should have been a full reset of everyone, since people who got to a certain point under the old formula, might have gotten somewhere different under the new formula. Since they've clearly shown to interest in doing a reset, they might as well just eliminate the criteria altogether and only match by weight classes of mechs, and pull a completely random mix of players together. As it is right now... well...last night I had a match where it was 11 founders on one team and none on the other.

[Finring]

I personally seen no difference in match quality or search time. At least not perceptible so.

[Thorqemada]

The diffference i notice is that in general the Players act better in more matches than usual and that i am quite a few times was in the Light Lance with my 65T Heavy.

Also my LRMs upset the enemy Team questioning how many Lurmboats we have and doing the usual TryHardTrolling...

So there is a change!

Edited by Thorqemada, 13 September 2017 - 09:42 AM.

[DAYLEET]

Teer Kerensky, on 13 September 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...ng-restrictions

So kinda as that, tier 1 should not see tier 3. And I was just in a game with Donald Kerensky Trump who is tier 3.

It does make you think a bit how really tightened the MM really is. But at least the limit of 1 tier separation is not a hard limit.

Tier/weight valving was per player, meaning a T1 might drop instantly but a t3 that had waited a set amount of time(first it was 60s then was lowered to 30s, who knows what are the rules now) will be put with the T1. To reiterate, tiering/weight valving matchmaking isnt per team, its per player. I seriously doubt that weight is separated anymore. Match with 8 assault+heavies on each sides have been the norm for a year(this sucks hard). I dont know what else got ditched in the matchmaking but every 4-6months they have to tell us the MM restriction have been fixed or put back to a more restrictive setting.

[Jman5]

Asym, on 13 September 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

I'm not sure the 'new' MM test is working??

I've seen Tier 1 players and I'm a 3....on more than one occasion....

I'm beginning to wonder if the tiers should be arranged by w/l records and then, if you had to, a damage-number of matches calculation???
Sometimes you get a Tier 2 or 3 that has been here for years playing a new tier 3 or 4 and it's not even a close contest.... I have not broke 150 in damage in 11 games (w/o Arty or AS;) nor have survived a match; nor, have the teams I've been on seen a win...... Stomps or almost stomps mostly and dead quiet VOIP. Even when our "team players" out numbered the other teams "team players" 11 to 2.......

Look, I'm a below avg potato and freely admit it but the gameplay itself seems to have gone to heck..... There have been several times players have "just walked off the map", refused to play the game (as in the circle in Dom or the points in conquest) or DC'd in frustration? Haven't seen that in a while....

What are your thoughts???

What you're asking for is essentially Elo, which is what this game had before the tier system. It worked alright, but got wonky when players moved from the group queue to the solo queue and vice versa. Good players who played lots of solo were undervalued when dropping groups while good players who played in good groups were over valued when dropping solo.

The only way they can make WLR work in this game is if they divorced your Group queue Elo from your Solo queue Elo.

[Mawai]

DAYLEET, on 13 September 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:

Tier/weight valving was per player, meaning a T1 might drop instantly but a t3 that had waited a set amount of time(first it was 60s then was lowered to 30s, who knows what are the rules now) will be put with the T1. To reiterate, tiering/weight valving matchmaking isnt per team, its per player. I seriously doubt that weight is separated anymore. Match with 8 assault+heavies on each sides have been the norm for a year(this sucks hard). I dont know what else got ditched in the matchmaking but every 4-6months they have to tell us the MM restriction have been fixed or put back to a more restrictive setting.

No. They may or may not have changed the weight class aspect of matchmaking but I would think that they haven't since there isn't any point.

The matchmaker will always TRY to make a 3/3/3/3 match to start with. However, when the queue times for weight classes reach a certain threshold the matchmaker HAS to change to a different distribution to deal with the fact that people do NOT queue up with a 3/3/3/3 mech distribution ... i.e. 25% of players/weight class. In my experience, the distribution is more like 30% assault, 40% heavy, 20% medium and 10% light. If you FORCE 3/3/3/3 then the 10% lights get instant matches but since 4x as many people are queuing in heavies ... and 3 lights are needed for each match ... then 30% of the heavies will have to wait until another 10% of lights enter the queue (however, by that time the number of heavies waiting will have gone up to 60 since only 10 from each batch entering the queue get a match with the 10 lights). The end result is that the wait for a match in a heavy mech with a forced 3/3/3/3 will very quickly be over an hour or more and will increase indefinitely.

SO ... the matchmaker MUST be able to make up matches that correspond to the distribution of mechs that people actually play ... not some idealized model that doesn't conform to reality. As a result, since players do not conform to 25% of the player base in each weight class, the average match can NOT be 3/3/3/3.

There are three factors in play here ...
1) player skill matching ... now tightened to use a 1 tier spread likely from the player used to seed the match (since that is how the previous matchmaker worked and I don't think PGI has bothered to re-implement the matchmaker ... they have just tweaked the PSR range that can be selected for match making.)
2) weight class matching ... start with 3/3/3/3 and release it the longer it takes to form a match
3) queue times

If you tighten the skill requirement window, you increase queue times. If you don't adjust the release valve times related to the weight class matching then since matches take longer in general to form then fewer of these will be 3/3/3/3. If you do increase the release valve times on the weight class matching then there will be more 3/3/3/3 matches but the queue times will be even longer.