51 replies to this topic

[Valhallan]

Appogee, on 12 September 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

Conceptually a BV system makes a lot of sense.

However, where it will go badly off the rails in MWO is that the people assigning the BVs will be PGI.

Yes unfortunately i cannot refute this , this is the main stumbling block. , conceptually they could and should do it, but in actuality? heh can't say. That is why i said QP can be a safe haven while solaris gets the lotto . But i still understand the hesitation, even if at this point i say go for it.

[Appogee]

Valhallan, on 12 September 2017 - 12:59 AM, said:

even if at this point i say go for it.

Me too.

History tell us BV will be poorly implemented. However, it won't be any worse than what we have now, and conceptually, there's potential for it to be better.

So, let's roll the dice.

Decoding the new meta after each PGI mood swing and balance pass is mildly interesting in itself.

Edited by Appogee, 12 September 2017 - 01:06 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Khalcruth, on 11 September 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

Well, they said they were going to somehow be dividing mechs into tiers for their Solaris implementation. I'd expect that a BV system would help with that.

In any case, I'd say it was a great idea. Instead of dropdecks by tonnage, you could have them by BV. Like, for example, 1000 - 8000 BV. If you really wanted to, you could take 4 atlases with two small lasers a piece. Want to take the greatest meta-alphastriker around? Ok, but it'll actually limit what you can arm your other 3 mechs with.

given how they rate pilots I gonna doubt their BV system will have the right values, so in the end youc an bet playes will game the BV system.

[LowSubmarino]

Haha funny.

I mentioned multiple times over the years that games would be more balanced and that there would be a higher incentive to play weaker mechs if fighting and winning and performing well in mechs that have a lower rating would be way more rewarding than winning in a mech with a high battle value.

But im not surprised it took pgi half a decade to realize that.

Smart as I am all the time I already knew that years ago.

repair and rearm costs which would be significantly reduced in mid to low tier mechs would also be a good thing for the game. Winning and performing well in very weak mechs - specially if facing high tier mechs - should give maximum rewards so high that ppl actually choose most if not all mechs and not only the best mechs.

But itll prolly be another 5 - 15 years til pgi realizes thats a good idea.

[Luminis]

A BV system - or Mech tiering - means we can kiss inter-chassis balance good bye, I guess? Easier to slap a low rating onto a Mech than to buff it to usable performance. Dunno whether I like that. Goes straight against the ideal of every 'Mech being of equal vaue. More in-line with BT, though

I am also wondering how this - if implented - is gonna affect QP. Who's going to play the low BV 'Mechs when you can pick a top 'Mech and feed on everyone else...

[Admiral-Dan]

Luminis, on 12 September 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

Who's going to play the low BV 'Mechs when you can pick a top 'Mech and feed on everyone else...

The same guys who plays bad mechs and/or bad builds today.

[LowSubmarino]

Luminis, on 12 September 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

A BV system - or Mech tiering - means we can kiss inter-chassis balance good bye, I guess? Easier to slap a low rating onto a Mech than to buff it to usable performance. Dunno whether I like that. Goes straight against the ideal of every 'Mech being of equal vaue. More in-line with BT, though

I am also wondering how this - if implented - is gonna affect QP. Who's going to play the low BV 'Mechs when you can pick a top 'Mech and feed on everyone else...

I totally disagree. Like completly and whole heartedly.

I enjoy more realistic and immersive fantasy and game worlds much, much more than having my hand held like a little whiney cry baby nonstop.

In the canon many fractions couldnt just field top of the line, edge of the knife, tip of the spear mechs. They had limited resources and yes, there were much, much sronger mechs.

Why does everybody always want to balance each and every mech. Thats so bad i dont even know how to say just how bad.

But rewarding players for playing well in okayish or even weaker mechs vs technologically overwhelming odds is the way to go. Give them a ginormous cbill boost. Give them reputation points. Let them shine.

And make it really, really pricey to field the highest tier mechs. Using the best technology and mechs....has to be super and majojrily expensive. Rearming and repairing them? Let it be really, and i meann really (in an evil way) expensive and taxing. Meaning directly: If you just play okayish and mediocre with that high tier technology then you wont even cover your expenses for merely fielding the mech even though you dont really have to repair much.

Thats what I would do. Thats what makes a game way more entertaining. Let your actions and the way you play have some real mannly impact. Not this childsplay of mimimimi its so unfair and all must be equally strong.

In what world are you living. Thats not how things works. At all. Thats not realistic.

In VIetnam war they defeated the strongest faction on the planet by digging tunnels and figthing with raw determination. You think the vietcong cried about how unfair it was that they were bombed by advanced military technology?

They still were able to effectively defend themselves even though they at the same time suffered catastrophic losses.

reward good gameplay. Make the way a player impacts the match with excellent choices more meaningful. And put a heavy, heavy, reeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaly heavy penalty on playing okayish or bad with top tier mechs.

Sure. You can field top tier mechs. But that will cost you. Cost you a lot.

Let dying and gettin dmged or caught baldy positioned in costly mechs run a shiver of fear down your back. Let your choices finally mean someting in mwo and not just 'oh well, who cares, next game, no consequences'.

Stop wanting to balance everything. Instead attach real consequences. Tangible consequences to your actions to make an immersive game that pumps your blood.

It is those games that become addictive and get huge communities. Look at pubg. Its so exciting to play precisely because the game is super imba, hardcore, unfair and refreshingly non 'lemme hold your hand you cute little crybaby'. Instead its ruthless, hard. manly, exciting. Super exciting.

God i miss the times where there were real manly games. Not this childsplay haha.

[Bigbacon]

oneda, on 12 September 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

I totally disagree. Like completly and whole heartedly.

I enjoy more realistic and immersive fantasy and game worlds much, much more than having my hand held like a little whiney cry baby nonstop.

In the canon many fractions couldnt just field top of the line, edge of the knife, tip of the spear mechs. They had limited resources and yes, there were much, much sronger mechs.

Why does everybody always want to balance each and every mech. Thats so bad i dont even know how to say just how bad.

But rewarding players for playing well in okayish or even weaker mechs vs technologically overwhelming odds is the way to go. Give them a ginormous cbill boost. Give them reputation points. Let them shine.

And make it really, really pricey to field the highest tier mechs. Using the best technology and mechs....has to be super and majojrily expensive. Rearming and repairing them? Let it be really, and i meann really (in an evil way) expensive and taxing. Meaning directly: If you just play okayish and mediocre with that high tier technology then you wont even cover your expenses for merely fielding the mech even though you dont really have to repair much.

Thats what I would do. Thats what makes a game way more entertaining. Let your actions and the way you play have some real mannly impact. Not this childsplay of mimimimi its so unfair and all must be equally strong.

In what world are you living. Thats not how things works. At all. Thats not realistic.

In VIetnam war they defeated the strongest faction on the planet by digging tunnels and figthing with raw determination. You think the vietcong cried about how unfair it was that they were bombed by advanced military technology?

They still were able to effectively defend themselves even though they at the same time suffered catastrophic losses.

reward good gameplay. Make the way a player impacts the match with excellent choices more meaningful. And put a heavy, heavy, reeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaly heavy penalty on playing okayish or bad with top tier mechs.

Sure. You can field top tier mechs. But that will cost you. Cost you a lot.

Let dying and gettin dmged or caught baldy positioned in costly mechs run a shiver of fear down your back. Let your choices finally mean someting in mwo and not just 'oh well, who cares, next game, no consequences'.

Stop wanting to balance everything. Instead attach real consequences. Tangible consequences to your actions to make an immersive game that pumps your blood.

It is those games that become addictive and get huge communities. Look at pubg. Its so exciting to play precisely because the game is super imba, hardcore, unfair and refreshingly non 'lemme hold your hand you cute little crybaby'. Instead its ruthless, hard. manly, exciting. Super exciting.

God i miss the times where there were real manly games. Not this childsplay haha.

its a video game...there is nothing manly about it.

[Luminis]

@oneda,

dude, this isn't Vietnam. If you want to play a bad 'Mech because it makes you feel manly, cool. I don't derive my manliness from MWO so it won't do me a whole lotta good.

Why do I not like the idea of making it expenive to run good 'Mechs? Simples. I can buy a couple million C-Bills by throwing cash at the game and nullify that supposed drawback. That's literally pay to win - which never did any PvP game any good.

I couldn't care less about it being hard, but take your bad PUBG example. What you want is limiting players to lvl1 vests unless they either grind a dozen games with just those lvl1 vests or pay real cash to run around in lvl3 vests all the time. I bet that would please the PUBG community a whole lot.

[Novakaine]

oneda, on 12 September 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

I totally disagree. Like completly and whole heartedly.

I enjoy more realistic and immersive fantasy and game worlds much, much more than having my hand held like a little whiney cry baby nonstop.

In the canon many fractions couldnt just field top of the line, edge of the knife, tip of the spear mechs. They had limited resources and yes, there were much, much sronger mechs.

Why does everybody always want to balance each and every mech. Thats so bad i dont even know how to say just how bad.

But rewarding players for playing well in okayish or even weaker mechs vs technologically overwhelming odds is the way to go. Give them a ginormous cbill boost. Give them reputation points. Let them shine.

And make it really, really pricey to field the highest tier mechs. Using the best technology and mechs....has to be super and majojrily expensive. Rearming and repairing them? Let it be really, and i meann really (in an evil way) expensive and taxing. Meaning directly: If you just play okayish and mediocre with that high tier technology then you wont even cover your expenses for merely fielding the mech even though you dont really have to repair much.

Thats what I would do. Thats what makes a game way more entertaining. Let your actions and the way you play have some real mannly impact. Not this childsplay of mimimimi its so unfair and all must be equally strong.

In what world are you living. Thats not how things works. At all. Thats not realistic.

In VIetnam war they defeated the strongest faction on the planet by digging tunnels and figthing with raw determination. You think the vietcong cried about how unfair it was that they were bombed by advanced military technology?

They still were able to effectively defend themselves even though they at the same time suffered catastrophic losses.

reward good gameplay. Make the way a player impacts the match with excellent choices more meaningful. And put a heavy, heavy, reeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaly heavy penalty on playing okayish or bad with top tier mechs.

Sure. You can field top tier mechs. But that will cost you. Cost you a lot.

Let dying and gettin dmged or caught baldy positioned in costly mechs run a shiver of fear down your back. Let your choices finally mean someting in mwo and not just 'oh well, who cares, next game, no consequences'.

Stop wanting to balance everything. Instead attach real consequences. Tangible consequences to your actions to make an immersive game that pumps your blood.

It is those games that become addictive and get huge communities. Look at pubg. Its so exciting to play precisely because the game is super imba, hardcore, unfair and refreshingly non 'lemme hold your hand you cute little crybaby'. Instead its ruthless, hard. manly, exciting. Super exciting.

God i miss the times where there were real manly games. Not this childsplay haha.

+10 brother.
A T5 pilot in a Atlas will probably lose to an experienced T1 Atlas pilot more than 80% of the time.
The T5 will get lucky every now and again, but for the most part he will lose.
So yeah at this point of the game a battle value system can only help.
Their on a good track with the skill system, but it needs to go further.
Sadly for me the game is becoming less and less fun to play.
Since it has turned into AlphaArty Strikewarrior Online.

[mogs01gt]

Metus regem, on 11 September 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

A BV system doesn't actually make a lot of sense for MWO, as how will they assign a value for the pilots? Not all T1 pilot are created equal after all...
I would say it's a safer bet that Baradul was talking out of their backside.

It would make perfect sense in MWO. Especially when someone runs a non-optimum build in a mech and is a T2 or T1 pilot. The game currently forces them to carry which causes a lot of the stomps and frustration when being forced to run meta mechs.

[Blind Squirrel]

There are some things missing, but I just want to provide a quick example of how it could actually work. This took me about 30 minutes of tweaking the formulas in a spreadsheet just to make sure the numbers were viable. There are smarter people than me to fix the "holes".

• All calculations should be done after skill points are applied.
  
• I assigned the following modifiers to each sub-value to have the totals fall within a 3-digit BV:
  
  • Engine Mod: STD (0.5), XL (0.75), LFE (1.0), Clan XL (1.0)
    
  • Speed Mod: 10
    
  • Equipment Mod: 10
    
  • Damage Mod: 10
    
  • Heat Mod: 100

And here are the calculations:

• Armor BV = Total Armor + Total Structure
  
• Speed BV = Speed * Mech Tonnage / Speed Mod
  
• Engine BV = (60 - Engine Tonnage + Engine Rating) * Engine Mod
  
• Heat BV = Heat Mod * Heat Ratio
  
• Damage BV = Damage Mod * Firepower
  
• Equipment BV = ((# of AMS/2) + ECM + (Targeting Computer Weight) + (# of Jump Jets/2) + (Active Probe/2) + (# of CASE components/4)) * Equip Mod
  
• Total Mech BV = Armor BV + Speed BV + Engine BV + Heat BV + Damage BV + Equipment BV

Some people have mentioned that high-mounted weapons are better positioned for the meta game. To address this, the Damage BV would have to be modified to somethink like:

• Weapon Mod: Cockpit-level and above (1.2), Below-cockpit but above "waist" (1.0), Below "waist" (0.8)
  
• Damage BV = Damage Mod * ((Weapon1 * Weapon Mod) + (Weapon2 * Weapon Mod) + (Weapon3 * Weapon Mod) + (Weapon4 * Weapon Mod) + etc...)

To address Player BV, the first thing I thought of was to use the KDR for the specific chassis as a multiplier to the Total Mech BV. If they haven't played some set number of games in the chassis (let's say 10), then their KDR is set at 1.0. Once they reach the minimum number of games, use their actual KDR for that chassis.

• Player BV = Chassis KDR

Which gives us: Total BV = Total Mech BV * Player BV


Here's an example of some mechs with typical loadouts (Player BV not included, obviously):
BV Category WLF-2 ACH-Prime BLR-1G WHK-Prime Engine BV 255.0 344.0 388.0 379.5 Speed BV 477.8 388.8 583.1 550.8 Armor BV 352 324 768 771 Damage BV 240 300 450 600 Heat BV 147 151 136 131 Equipment BV 0 110 0 50 Total Mech BV 1471.8 1617.8 2325.1 2482.3

Edited by Blind Squirrel, 12 September 2017 - 01:08 PM.