56 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

Mutlak, on 14 September 2017 - 06:06 AM, said:

This topic previously posted in support and feedback based on Van mw advice im moved it to general :
This is the previous post :

Even with the new skill tree my assault with fully upgraded AMS still taking a lot of damage from LRM. Lately a lot of match result ( winning or losing) seems only determined by number of LRM in each side. Whoever got more LRM ended up winning most of the time even if opposite team got AMS.
I believed at least AMS should have been more effective for countering LRM - not just reduced damage from taking missiles; but single ams capable to disabling single dedicated LRM boat-assault is not that fast in terms of mobility.
What do you think ?
; Anyone got different opinion ?

Any other idea ?

You are doing one of the following things wrong.

one: staying exposed to long assuming the AMS will negate LRM effectiveness. Keep in mind that an AMS is .5 tons + ammo using 1+ crit slots. It should not be capable of nullifying a larger LRM launcher even an LRM10 is 5tons + ammo and 3 crits (more with additional ammo)

two: Over estimating how effective AMS is. Assume 1 AMS is equal to destroying 5 LRMs.

three: not using enough AMS to accomplish your desired goals. I played a recent quick play match on Polar that was a perfect storm for my team. I was piloting a Crab -27 with twin AMS my team mates had a Kitfox with triple AMS and a firestarter with twin AMS. Our assault lance had an Annihilator with an AMS a Mauler and a Madcat MKII (some big mechs with loads of firepower)

The enemy had 2 Inner Sphere LRM assault LRM boat and a Supernova with ATMs (their assault lance was all LRM/ATM oriented ours was largely ballistics)

We formed up our light AMS carrier mechs around the Annihilator and flanked it with our other assaults and heavies and just marched straight ( in cover when possible) to the enemy assault mechs with 8 AMS blazing away. This easily reduced the incoming LRM fire by 50% and we massacared them in close quarters.

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

We call it "sky shield" any number of ams carriers+a pair of ecm lights to blanket, lights can be ams carriers, but in concept any number of ams over 15 on the team (with range and dmg buffs) can litterally turn the sky empty. No missle barrage can hope to cut through, but in practice irritating to have to carry "the anti lurm shield" or convincing your whole team to at least bring one lams

Edited by ShadowHimself, 14 September 2017 - 04:15 PM.

[Mutlak]

Thank you for your every opinion today

The problem is rarely i found a match with enough AMS to countering six LRM pillar in the sky. (even though you only need two skill point to fully upgraded AMS) A lot of people at quickplay dont want to sacrificing even a mere 1 ton (1 ams + half ton ammo) so most of the time some people (actually happened many times) likes to hide behind my assault ( which only carrying one AMS) thinking me as the only bullwark against many LRM.
I died so quickly even when the real target are another mech behind me.
Cant thinking any other way to make other people start using ams for themselves.
DO you guys have any idea how to promoting AMS to other people ? Just ask around and im sure a lot of people at quickplay rarely using ams.( Kit fox with three ams are not that common )
And about radar deprivation : investing 14 SP to fully upgraded radar depri somehow felt like a difficult deal.
What do you guys thinks ?

[Trissila]

Mutlak, on 15 September 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

Thank you for your every opinion today

The problem is rarely i found a match with enough AMS to countering six LRM pillar in the sky. (even though you only need two skill point to fully upgraded AMS) A lot of people at quickplay dont want to sacrificing even a mere 1 ton (1 ams + half ton ammo) so most of the time some people (actually happened many times) likes to hide behind my assault ( which only carrying one AMS) thinking me as the only bullwark against many LRM.
I died so quickly even when the real target are another mech behind me.
Cant thinking any other way to make other people start using ams for themselves.
DO you guys have any idea how to promoting AMS to other people ? Just ask around and im sure a lot of people at quickplay rarely using ams.( Kit fox with three ams are not that common )
And about radar deprivation : investing 14 SP to fully upgraded radar depri somehow felt like a difficult deal.
What do you guys thinks ?

I think that 14 skill points, out of 91 available, to completely shut down LRMs that don't have a dedicated spotter or UAV -- amongst other benefits like making it more difficult for the enemy team to maintain a lock on you and get a clean read of your armor state -- is a pretty sweet deal.

As for people not carrying AMS? As I stated in my original reply, it's simply not needed most of the time. Proper play obviates the need for AMS 90% of the time.

Prototelis, on 14 September 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

Protip:

Always vote against polar lrmlands.

I don't understand peoples' problem with Polar. The map's got tons of hills, trenches and ridges to break LoS with. You pop up, locate a target, hit it, then drop back down behind your ridge. Relocate, rinse and repeat. With Radar Dep, any missiles that do get fired are just going to get dumped off and slam into the ground where you were several seconds ago.

Edited by Trissila, 15 September 2017 - 03:22 AM.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Trissila, on 15 September 2017 - 03:18 AM, said:

As for people not carrying AMS? As I stated in my original reply, it's simply not needed most of the time. Proper play obviates the need for AMS 90% of the time.

I have to agree with that, even if I don't like it.

I'm one of those madmen that actually like having an AMS on most of my 'Mechs, but there are already so many counters to missile-rain that those slots and tonnage could be better employed for something else ...

[Jun Watarase]

Radar deprivation isnt worth it unless you are doing a long range build on polar IMHO. It also doesnt work if the LRM boats have spotters willing to take fire to spot.

Target decay only seems to work if the LRM boat itself got the lock, it doesnt appear to work if a teammate spots and the target breaks LOS.

[AJBennett]

AMS is not meant to make you "missile proof" its a mitigation to reduce the damage taken by incoming missiles...which it does well even without active skill nodes. I try to use AMS on mechs that need exposure time when firing, but the best missile defense is using terrain...and speed if you have it.

Edited by AJBennett, 15 September 2017 - 05:24 AM.

[Vanguard319]

hmm, My triple LAMS Kit Fox w full AMS Overload has no issues eating LRMs, maybe if I have about a hundred flying at me at once, I might take a hit, but I've usually taken cover and broken missile lock by then.

AMS minimizes damage from missiles, but it is not guaranteed to make you immune to damage.

Edited by Vanguard319, 15 September 2017 - 03:26 PM.

[Void Angel]

AMS does not (and is not designed to) counter LRMs - it's designed to mitigate them. Don't think of the system as a hard counter, but rather as an umbrella of damage reduction against missile weapons; that's what they're designed to do, even in tabletop, and that's how you should use them - as an adjunct to good positioning, cover, and ECM.

Also remember, the best way to deal with ANY LRM user is to get in their face and stay there.

[Void Angel]

Jun Watarase, on 15 September 2017 - 04:42 AM, said:

Radar deprivation isnt worth it unless you are doing a long range build on polar IMHO. It also doesnt work if the LRM boats have spotters willing to take fire to spot.

Target decay only seems to work if the LRM boat itself got the lock, it doesnt appear to work if a teammate spots and the target breaks LOS.

The last is correct, if I recall (I haven't self-tested it.) If memory serves, Target Decay time is always based on the spotting unit - if you're getting an indirect lock via a spotter, you're making use of information sharing, not a lock per se, and your own decay time should be irrelevant.

However, don't sell Radar Deprivation short - it is of great use whenever you can break line of sight (spotter or no,) and handy to have even when you're not facing an LRM user at all. Radar Deprivation denies the enemy team information about your actions after you break line of sight - for this reason, I go down the left side of the Sensor tree for just those nodes in every build I'm currently using.

[Galenit]

Mutlak, on 15 September 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

Cant thinking any other way to make other people start using ams for themselves.
DO you guys have any idea how to promoting AMS to other people ?

If someone crys about lrms and dont use ams in match say the following: No ams, no cry!

[Pjwned]

Trissila, on 14 September 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

Why? Between TAG, NARC, and Active Probe, I'd say ECM has plenty of comparable-cost counters.

Because the main issues are how powerful it is when it isn't countered (read: it's WAY too powerful) and how little cost it has for the huge benefits it applies.

It is also quite annoying actually to counter it with the tools available, but that wouldn't be such an issue if ECM wasn't a jesus box.

Pointing to available ECM counters is missing the point pretty much entirely.

Sandpit, on 14 September 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

in all that you forgot to mention
ECM = 90 meter range (unless you invest in skill tree)
It takes up 2 slots (just because it doesn't take up a specific hardpoint doesn't mean you carry it for free)
It weighs 1.5 tons

Wow, it's almost like...that's pretty much nothing for the huge benefits it provides and that's a huge part of the problem.

Really makes one think.

Edited by Pjwned, 16 September 2017 - 02:25 AM.

[Horseman]

Mutlak, on 15 September 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

The problem is rarely i found a match with enough AMS to countering six LRM pillar in the sky. (even though you only need two skill point to fully upgraded AMS) A lot of people at quickplay dont want to sacrificing even a mere 1 ton (1 ams + half ton ammo) so most of the time some people (actually happened many times) likes to hide behind my assault ( which only carrying one AMS) thinking me as the only bullwark against many LRM.
I died so quickly even when the real target are another mech behind me.
Cant thinking any other way to make other people start using ams for themselves.
DO you guys have any idea how to promoting AMS to other people ? Just ask around and im sure a lot of people at quickplay rarely using ams.( Kit fox with three ams are not that common )
And about radar deprivation : investing 14 SP to fully upgraded radar depri somehow felt like a difficult deal.
What do you guys thinks ?

1. You get match score (and C-Bills) for your AMS shooting down missiles.
2. You don't need 100% Radar Derp. 60% can be gotten much easier and does an adequate job.
3. You should learn how to maneuver to avoid getting exposed to LRMs for too long.

Pjwned, on 16 September 2017 - 02:21 AM, said:

Pointing to available ECM counters is missing the point pretty much entirely.

Something to consider: ECM may disguise your exact location, but the jamming also draws attention to your approximate one.

[Void Angel]

Point of order: ECM skill nodes do not increase the range of the ECM system. They increase the nerfed enemy sensor range reduction back up to its old level, requiring a minimum of 11 (I think,) points invested in the sensor tree. The nerfed ECM sensor reduction is only 30%, with the remaining 45% made up by skill nodes. Thus, if I just tack on ECM, I'm perfectly visible to enemies out to 560 meters - if someone (say an LRM jerk or Skillcrow) has an active probe, they'll spot me out to 700m.

Edited by Void Angel, 16 September 2017 - 01:20 PM.

[Lykaon]

Mutlak, on 15 September 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

Thank you for your every opinion today

The problem is rarely i found a match with enough AMS to countering six LRM pillar in the sky. (even though you only need two skill point to fully upgraded AMS) A lot of people at quickplay dont want to sacrificing even a mere 1 ton (1 ams + half ton ammo) so most of the time some people (actually happened many times) likes to hide behind my assault ( which only carrying one AMS) thinking me as the only bullwark against many LRM.
I died so quickly even when the real target are another mech behind me.
Cant thinking any other way to make other people start using ams for themselves.
DO you guys have any idea how to promoting AMS to other people ? Just ask around and im sure a lot of people at quickplay rarely using ams.( Kit fox with three ams are not that common )
And about radar deprivation : investing 14 SP to fully upgraded radar depri somehow felt like a difficult deal.
What do you guys thinks ?

I generally only use 60% radar derp by going down the left side of the skill tree. It seems effective enough but I also rarely pilot slow assault mechs and can easily break locks with cover.

And honestly if you are encountering that many LRMs you opposition has an easily exploited weakness. LRMs simply can not compete against direct fire weapons in a face to face confrontation. The lack of focused damage and very slow projectile speed make LRMs inferior at trading shots. Add to that the minimum ranges of ATMs and LRMs along with vulnerability to other counter measures like radar derp ECM and simple cover use and the team with heavy LRMs wins only because the enemy didn't force the fight into an unfavorable range and circumstance.

Now the trick is getting a quick play puggie team to grasp the simple concept of taking some damage now as you close range and no damage later (because you destroyed the LRM carriers) is ALWAYS preferential to sitting back and being hammered to death at range with no LOS to the LRM mechs well that's difficult.

Also the assault mech LRM boat that sits in the rear in cover has a solid counter mech with light skirmishers and harassers. It would be an exceptional LRM assault mech pilot to handle being ambushed by a dedicated close range fighter light mech. And an even rarer one to do it quickly enough to not grant a window of oppertunity to close range on the enemy while they are distracted fighting in close quarters.

So if the LRM issue is such a huge deal maybe you should try playing the counter mech instead of the target for a change.

[Wiley Coyote]

Sandpit, on 14 September 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

It sounds more like a new player asking for help and a bunch of salty aholes hijacking the thread and offering nothing in the way of tips and advice to me

A new player with the 1 Percent title? Ya, right. He's also been registered for almost a year.

[BrunoSSace]

Ams is too strong atm. I haven't been able to take any of my medium lrm boats out since too many peole are bringing ams and recking my fun. So until ether lrms get a buff or ams gets more nerffed my baby lrm boats are staying shelved.

[Burke IV]

They totally killed the medium LRM boats. For years people whined about "spamlord" assults who sit at the back and now thats all you got

[Brain Cancer]

Heavies and assaults, anyway.

It also pre-emptively did a number on ATMs for good measure- without extra missiles to soak some of the antimissile fire, a triple AMS KFX can effectively negate 28 tons of ATM launcher all by itself (that's 48 missiles, about the point where triple AMS starts to have issues wrecking a launch). Of course, that also means it ruins similar numbers of LRMs, which is why medium LRM skirmishers often are out of luck completely.

They kill NARC, too. AMS in TT only protects the robot using it, so MWO's version gets to do a lot more work.

[Void Angel]

Well, tabletop does a lot of things differently by necessity.

The problem here isn't exactly that AMS is too strong - or too weak. It's that it scales poorly, and gives inadequate feedback. Triple AMS systems with the skill nodes simply crush enemy LRM platforms, as will a cluster of AMS-equipped 'mechs (particularly if the LRM jockey is a newbie firing from 700m out over enemy AMS systems.) But a single AMS without skill nodes active can feel (wrongly) like it's just spitting in the wind - you may realistically be getting a 10% or higher damage reduction from incoming fire, but it doesn't feel that way, which is why so many people are ignoring the math to complain about LRMs while they refuse to mount AMS systems.

I'm honestly not sure there's an easy fix to this - though restricting AMS to covering only the equipped chassis may be necessary. Ditto for a rework of LRMs to make them more effective as direct-fire weapons, and less reliable for indirect fire. I'm not rock-solid sure what all needs to be done, but the current state of the LRM/ATM balance ecology leaves something to be desired.