28 replies to this topic

[Jormunrek]

It shows the last update on the Tier list as Jan. 2017.
So nothing post New Tech.

Jorm

[Trissila]

Metamechs has some content updated up through May or so, but it has not seen an update post-Civil-War-Tech.

[Lorcryst NySell]

I think the writer of MetaMechs said somewhere (Twitter ?) that he will wait for some time before posting new builds, just to let the new tech and new meta emerge ... I'm probably wrong though.

[Luminis]

Lorcryst NySell, on 15 September 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

I think the writer of MetaMechs said somewhere (Twitter ?) that he will wait for some time before posting new builds, just to let the new tech and new meta emerge ... I'm probably wrong though.

No, you're mostly right. From what he posted on Reddit, GMan is in the process of updating the data base. Which is a damn big undertaking, given the plethora of changes that have been made to the game in recent months.

[Bud Crue]

Luminis, on 15 September 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

No, you're mostly right. From what he posted on Reddit, GMan is in the process of updating the data base. Which is a damn big undertaking, given the plethora of changes that have been made to the game in recent months.

He also made a comment yesterday that he was "behind" in light of some possible computer issues. If nothing else, that to me suggests that he has the intention of making an effort in the future to update the site.

[l33tworks]

Bud Crue, on 15 September 2017 - 03:32 AM, said:

He also made a comment yesterday that he was "behind" in light of some possible computer issues. If nothing else, that to me suggests that he has the intention of making an effort in the future to update the site.

People still put insane number of neon lights on their case? I thought that fad went away.

[Bud Crue]

l33tworks, on 15 September 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

People still put insane number of neon lights on their case? I thought that fad went away.

-rim shot-

[Requiemking]

I hope it stays dead. That website has been the cause of far too many unnecessary nerfs(particularly to Light mechs) because none of the builds on there have more than 6 armor on any rear segment.

[Kiiyor]

Requiemking, on 15 September 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I hope it stays dead. That website has been the cause of far too many unnecessary nerfs(particularly to Light mechs) because none of the builds on there have more than 6 armor on any rear segment.

Frontloading armor for president tho.

I used to scoff until I tried it. Even with lights murdering everything on the battlefield and causing everyone to exaggerate about how lights are murdering everything on the battlefield, those few extra armour points on the front actually do make a difference.

In my experience anyway.

Edited by Kiiyor, 15 September 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[Requiemking]

Kiiyor, on 15 September 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

Frontloading armor for president tho.

I used to scoff until I tried it. Even with lights murdering everything on the battlefield and causing everyone to exaggerate about how lights are murdering everything on the battlefield, those few extra armour points on the front actually do make a difference.

In my experience anyway.

It makes a difference in a trade war with no fast mechs on the enemy team(Lights aren't the only ones who can backstab). The moment an unfriendly fast mech gets in your rear armor, then your gonna start wishing you had more than 6 points back there. Well, that would be the case, if you weren't the average potato. Unfortunately, the average potato doesn't know any better and screams and cries on the forums about "Lights OP" when the reality is they need to put more armor on their back.

Edited by Requiemking, 15 September 2017 - 09:37 AM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

A few more points of armor in back will not stop a light from stripping your back and dealing crits with its first alpha. The most popular lights right now run pinpoint alphas in the 30 point range, and all that damage is in your rear torso in 0.5 to 1.1 seconds. Unless you know the attack is coming, you're not going to react fast enough to spread that damage. It is going to penetrate. You'd need to put half your armor back there to prevent that. The only thing that will consistently save you from backstabs is situational awareness.

A few more points of armor in front, however, will prevent you from potentially being instagibbed by a 78-point gigavomit alpha. Notice how the front CT armor on that 65-tonner is only two points higher than its 2xHLL+6xERML alpha strike, even with the armor stripped down to 4 points in back? If you took a similar config against that with ten or fifteen points of back armor, you're CT cored in one shot and a stiff breeze will finish you off- not to mention the LMGs that are so popular these days. Frontload, and you still have a sliver of armor shielding you from crits.

That is why frontloading armor is popular. Back armor offers only partial protection from a backstab that you might die from once every few games, as long as you stay alert and keep an eye out for would-be assassins. Front armor protects you from the massive alphas that you will face in every single game, every single time you step out of cover to take a shot.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Quite the tangent of frontloading armour here ...

OK, actually, I find the whole "META or DIE" mindset very hard to understand, because for me that leads to everyone having the same 'Mech with the same loadout, and I find that very boring and sad.

But in reality, I don't see that ingame, so META must not be so universal and omnipresent after all ...

Back to frontloading ... yes, since most of the time you'll take damage to the front, and since backstabbers can actually pack a huge punch, reducing back armour makes sense.

BUT !

Keeping in mind that I play mostly in SoloQ in PUGLandia Tier 5, I've found that if I go below 10 points of armour on my back CT, I die to LRM volleys back-coring me... when it rains missiles, you take damage everywhere, including your back (that is, if you're just a bit too slow to reach cover ... I know all too well the counters to LRMs, no need to bring that nasty cesspit of a debate here).

I really tried to frontload to the max and leave a single point of armour on my back, and every single time it was the LRMs that killed my engine by going through that paper-thin excuse for a back armour.

Since I won't be able to survive one of those huge alphas to my face anyway (I mostly pilot Mediums), those 9 points of armour that could go to the front stay on my back.

If the Elder Gods wish it and I finally get out of "LRM everywhere Tier", that might change !

Edited by Lorcryst NySell, 15 September 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

The lowest amount of armor I have on read is my other Dire with 3xUAC5 +2xUAC10, it has 132 front, 4 back. And that's just fine. Only special mechs would require much more than 8. If most of the time you die because you lost all your fron armor, you are doing fine, no matter what amount of armor you have on the back.

Typically on assults I have about 6 to 8. It somewhat depends on range and speed, a mech that can and will twist it's torso more, can benefit from having little more armor on rear. You so rarely are able to control the situation so perfectly, that only one enemy mech at only one direction, can shoot you.


I have understood that the metamechs site is not updated so much as the person behind it is not playing MWO so much, so due to time and motivation constraints.

[Trissila]

Requiemking, on 15 September 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I hope it stays dead. That website has been the cause of far too many unnecessary nerfs(particularly to Light mechs) because none of the builds on there have more than 6 armor on any rear segment.

Metamechs has nothing to do with that, that's just intelligent 'mech design given how the game works.

It's pretty trivial for a light 'mech to hit a 30 or so point alpha strike. Hell, an Arctic Cheetah can mount two heavy medium lasers and hit 20 while still having 6 tons left over for other weapons. Unless you are seriously crippling your front-side survivability, you're not stopping that. If you allow any competent enemy to shoot you in the back, your armor is gone in the first shot, and the second shot is coring you, no matter how much you put back there.

So you're much better off putting just enough to not leave you exposed when you take one or two stray laser hits, and frontloading the rest.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Even before the new tech, an ACH-PRIME could load 6 ERSLs easily and melt backs and faces with 30 points of mostly-pinpoint damage (not me though, my hands shake too much to get the full burn on the same location), so yes, frontloading always made sense, nothing to do with MetaMechs.

Frontloading is good in almost all cases, with at most the fringe cases I see when I'm LRM'ed to death ... and even then, those 10 points on my rear CT are mostly a comfort thing since most of my 'Mech don't have enough total armour on the front to survive the big alphas anyway. You really need to pilot something above 60 tons to have enough armour points available to get that 79+ front armour.

[The Lighthouse]

Putting some armor on back (that is, a liiiitle more than just 5 or 6 on heavier mechs) is not just for backstabbing lights.

If people could put armor on back a bit more, even current air/arty strikes would be far less powerful.

It also can save your gauss rifle, for instance, when you are forced to retreat and have to show your back to enemies.

WrathOfDeadguy, on 15 September 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

A few more points of armor in front, however, will prevent you from potentially being instagibbed by a 78-point gigavomit alpha. Notice how the front CT armor on that 65-tonner is only two points higher than its 2xHLL+6xERML alpha strike, even with the armor stripped down to 4 points in back? If you took a similar config against that with ten or fifteen points of back armor, you're CT cored in one shot and a stiff breeze will finish you off- not to mention the LMGs that are so popular these days. Frontload, and you still have a sliver of armor shielding you from crits.

That is why frontloading armor is popular. Back armor offers only partial protection from a backstab that you might die from once every few games, as long as you stay alert and keep an eye out for would-be assassins. Front armor protects you from the massive alphas that you will face in every single game, every single time you step out of cover to take a shot.

No, a few more point on front armor hardly makes any difference unless you are in light mechs.

I find people usually here and Reddit are really hypocritical regarding this particular issue.


People say "do this" particular mech movement tactic when someone is whining about too much laser pinpoint alpha in the game.

People also use this argument to defend PGI's terrible decision of making IS XL death on side torso destruction.

But none bothers to mention this godlike mech movement tactic when we are talking about back/front armor issue. Suddenly putting tiny 5 more armor on front is only solution. Mass selective cherry picking argument if you ask me.


So I am actually going to use it here.




TORSO.

TWIST.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 15 September 2017 - 01:07 PM.

[Luminis]

Requiemking, on 15 September 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Unfortunately, the average potato doesn't know any better and screams and cries on the forums about "Lights OP" when the reality is they need to put more armor on their back.

The problem isn't MetaMechs, it's PGI listening to that stuff.

Also, a spud in a good build with six rear armour is probably still better of than the same spud in a kitchen sink build with ten rear armour...

[panzer1b]

Requiemking, on 15 September 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I hope it stays dead. That website has been the cause of far too many unnecessary nerfs(particularly to Light mechs) because none of the builds on there have more than 6 armor on any rear segment.

The thing is, frontloading is the ONLY viable method of armor distribution right now. You pretty much need to have at least 10-15 armor on the back to effectively stop a backstabber, and that means that your front components are open to being 1 shot stripped by most heavys or assaults (50ish alfa strike is more or less what you can expect to come out of the vast majority of enemys at mid range, with some above 70 too).

Also, i pilot mostly heavys, but the fast mediums and occasional light i get backstab kills with almost always is done when the enemy is already engaged and cannot afford to turn around to face me and stop my MG boat from ripping their backside apart. There are very few lights that can 1-shot backstab even with no rear armor, so for me, bringing rear armor is nothing more then airstrike protection (i like to have ~4-5 on teh back just to lower the effect of the new meta: airstrikewarrior online) since every semi well build light mech is gonna have at least 15 or so energy alfa strike to remove armor plating (more then enough to strip anything that isnt lacking frontal protection in 1 shot to follow up with MGs or other weapons).

Maybe at lower skill levels its different, but for me, 90% of the time putting armor on the back of my mech is completely pointless (with the exception of heavier mechs cause airstrikes are a major problem) since its not like backstabbers are really going to be dissuaded by 20 points of armor, and it takes away critical protection from my front which is where ALL fire is going to be coming from if i dont make stupid positioning errors (happens to teh best of us, but most of the time if you position badly you are dead regardless of armor levels).

As for metamechs, i know they havent really been following the meta recently (since most of the meta mechs on there are gauss+ppc which is 90% dead after ghost heat with a few exceptions like 1 gauss+HPPC or so sorta being a thing). That and im not a huge fan of many builds on that site, cLPLs are trash right now (well not completely useless but the ERLL or HLL with 2 heatsinks is almost always superior) and most of the "vomit" builds there use lots of cLPL (IS side hasnt changed much so LPL+ML is still legit). Anyways, no idea why everyone takes that site as the end all of mech builds, ive tried many builds there and i can say that even before civil war hit, i wouldnt call the "best" of the builds on there that great. Maybee its just me but i was never a huge fan of the maintainer's obsession with PPFLD at all costs (and i dont get why youd even consider a assymetric mech unless its hardpoints force you to do it since thats asking to loose the mech's weapon side every time). Maybee im just bad at this game, but ill take laser vomit over pure PPFLD any day, i get way more damage per exposure (more alfa, and virtually impossible to miss a target), much more sustained combat capabilities (unless its a 3 ac-10 or something, PPC based mechs have trash DPS), i get more heat efficiency with lasers vs PPCs (never understood the drive to even use PPCs, hot, easy to miss a agile target past 500m, and ofc the all so common bug where you hit someone square in the face and do 0 damage), and single shot ACs (especially when combod with PPCs) are very awkward to use and have velocity mismatch which limits their usefulness against moving targets. Its not a bad site for people who have absolutely no idea what they are doing, but for me, ill stick to my own tried and true builds...

Edited by panzer1b, 15 September 2017 - 05:33 PM.

[Jormunrek]

Thanks for the head's up.
I live in Taterville so back armor is always there for me. Not to mention that right now with MachinegunWarriorOnline in it's current state (starting to see even Madcat II's sporting four mg's) Life is too dangerous for me to consider stripping my back armor.

The variant tier listings are mostly for me to see what the other half is using to run the table.

[Bishop Steiner]

Luminis, on 15 September 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

No, you're mostly right. From what he posted on Reddit, GMan is in the process of updating the data base. Which is a damn big undertaking, given the plethora of changes that have been made to the game in recent months.

How will CompLandia manage in the interim without his Approved Choices to copypasta??????

Think about the poor Comps!