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The Cache Curse Has Been Lifted....


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#21 Dee Eight

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 09:42 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 16 September 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:


It is very possibile that PGI nerfed the % of good drops, post inclusion of decals in crates. I am still getting good stuff from good crates, but with much lower rate than the introductory period of supply crates.


I've gotten dozens of mech bays since they were introduced. I get at least one bay a week from caches. I got one on the 14th, two on the 6th. But I've only pulled the ultra rare yellow item twice now. Once as a whopping 1000MC payout and now this mech. Since I started doing screen caps of my best pulls shortly before they adopted the color coding to the rarities, I've also hit the 500MC twice.

The irony is the mech came on one of my alts that doesn't get much money spent on it. So far since I started it, i've bought some MC, three already released mech packs (for the premium time and knowing I already liked the mechs from my main account)... one of which came during the vs sale period, and gotten in as an early-adopter on one pre-order. 2 of the mechs came as event prizes. 2 heroes and 3 champions during the 50% off sale. The rest were C-bill purchases. I only get mech bays for that account when they're on sale, or come from caches. Pulling a cache a week I can keep ahead of my cbill mech buying on it. It also qualified already for everything except the top tier clan/is/ultimate loyalty prizes. But there's also enough packs bought (2 IS, 2 clan) that I can upgrade to qualify now for very little additional if I so choose.

Edited by Dee Eight, 16 September 2017 - 09:51 AM.


#22 Mawai

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:18 AM

View PostPaigan, on 16 September 2017 - 12:39 AM, said:

Of course the vast majority understands it. The vast majority doesn't create cache-whining threads.

Also, you need to understand probability, too.
The ultra rare prices are REALLY valuable. 1000 MC, Mechs, etc. If they set the probability too low, they lose money in the process. A business that loses money is soon a dead business. They are not greey like some wallstreet gamblers who try to squeeze out a few more billions from Africa or whatever. They are a relatively small firm who introduced a gambling element into their game. Just as many other games have, too. Just as casinos do, too. With gambling, the bank ALWAYS wins in the end. Otherwise, it would be bankrupt and the gambling would stop.
Talking about the bank being "greedy" is just ignorant babbling.


This would be true if the rewards actually cost them anything. In a computer game, all digital assets are sunk costs. This means that you invest everything upfront in the creation of the asset and you earn money from sales down the line.

Giving things away in sales ONLY harms their income IF it cannibalizes potential sales. So, if they give away a mech someone would have purchased with MC then it costs them money. If they give someone a mech they would not have bought anyway then it really costs them nothing ... except it makes the player MORE likely to spend MC on keys since they feel that it is possible to win decent rewards. Buying cache keys is already the most cost effective way to convert MC into cbills as far as I know.

In general, with gambling, the margin to the house is very small and they rely on large amounts of money being played to get their share. This document cites about 1% house margin for skilled blackjack players, 5,5% for stud poker and 2.7% on Roulette.

http://www.liquorand...asino_games.pdf

In MWO, the player needs to be enticed to spend real money to win virtual goods ... virtual goods whose only cost to the company is the opportunity cost of the player not purchasing something else. It isn't gambling ... it is a sales technique. Let's say the odds of winning a centurion are 1/1000 (as suggested above). A key costs 25MC. This means that on average every 1000 keys used will net one Centurion ... 25,000MC spent. A Centurion costs 1/10 or less of the MC spent.

On the other hand, maybe the mech is only 1/100 odds. It should be rare but the rewards can not be so rare that it discourages people from spending MC on winning. In fact, I'd suggest that the odds should be set so that the odds of winning would usually require about 50% of the MC required for an upfront purchase. This makes everything purchased by lottery cheaper BUT you don't get so select what you win, it is luck of the draw, however, the odds would be such that it would make purchasing keys a reasonable way to get random digital goods. Careful selection of what is made available would encourage secondary purchases and thus use the lottery system as a sales driver rather than the disincentive system it is right now.

P.S. The odds for MC prizes should be set at 100% or 101% rather than 50% since the MC could be used to purchase more keys and break the system.

Edited by Mawai, 16 September 2017 - 11:19 AM.


#23 Dee Eight

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:40 AM

Given others in other cache threads have reported multiple mechs as their best booty from these treasure chests, and I've pulled a 1000 MC as well as the mech... I'd say the odds are more in the 1:500 range for the ultra rares.

#24 LordNothing

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:41 AM

i seem to recall winning the same dragon twice. and a spider.

#25 FupDup

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:58 AM

If you gamble long enough, you will *eventually* win. The issue is that by the time you've gambled enough to win, you've probably lost money equal to or greater than your "reward." Don't let the quick adrenaline rush of actually getting something good fool you.

Gambling systems in both real casinos and virtual loot boxes are designed to stack the odds in favor of the house. The sooner you learn this, the more money you'll save.

#26 LordNothing

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 12:07 PM

View PostFupDup, on 16 September 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

If you gamble long enough, you will *eventually* win. The issue is that by the time you've gambled enough to win, you've probably lost money equal to or greater than your "reward." Don't let the quick adrenaline rush of actually getting something good fool you.

Gambling systems in both real casinos and virtual loot boxes are designed to stack the odds in favor of the house. The sooner you learn this, the more money you'll save.


ive never actually bought that many keys, usually spare mc after buying hero mechs or mech bays, mc won in events, and keys won in events.

if pgi wanted to sell more keys they would need to make the whole system less stingy. too many bad rewards, good rewards are bad, and winning the good rewards is very rare. caches themsleves are rare so even if i had a stack of nickles to feed into the slot machine i couldnt do it because id be out of caches.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 September 2017 - 12:10 PM.


#27 Dee Eight

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:53 PM

Making it so that buying more keys gave better value doing it all at once rather than 1 or 3 at a time would have been sensible. The same way that buying longer periods of premium time, or when converting MC to cbills, you get more for your individual unit of MC the more you convert in one transaction.

#28 stealthraccoon

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:02 PM

I'm still waiting to win that 220XL engine I see on occasion..

#29 jss78

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:11 PM

This is clearly the best supply cache prize. Posted Image

Posted Image

(Took me a few seconds to realize it's only a deckle.)

#30 Magnus Santini

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 07:00 PM

At least it is "penny ante" to open the box. Sometimes it can be fun to do it.

#31 Cloves

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 06:11 AM

I think that the biggest issue is that most caches are not worth opening even if you get the best prize.

Assume that the rarest item is 1% drop rate. If keys are $0.10 cents each, probability means you have to spend something like $20.00 to statistically get that prize. This means only the Mechs are worth rolling on, and only the heavier ones at that.

Good news is that you will likely do better than break even on the opportunity cost of the 50k you spent from not selling the cache.

Bad news is that you will have spent real money for Cbills, Mechbays, Premium time, GXP, Decals, and MC. If you needed all these things fine, open every Cache you get, but really how many of you would spend $20 for a Decal?

The takeaway from this rant: Even when using free event keys, only roll on boxes you would spend cash on, and set the bar high enough to make yourself a winner over time...

This is worth a watch: https://youtu.be/RHC-uGDbu7s

Edited by Cloves, 19 September 2017 - 06:16 AM.


#32 TLBFestus

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 07:56 AM

View PostMawai, on 16 September 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:


This would be true if the rewards actually cost them anything. In a computer game, all digital assets are sunk costs. This means that you invest everything upfront in the creation of the asset and you earn money from sales down the line.

Giving things away in sales ONLY harms their income IF it cannibalizes potential sales. So, if they give away a mech someone would have purchased with MC then it costs them money. If they give someone a mech they would not have bought anyway then it really costs them nothing ... except it makes the player MORE likely to spend MC on keys since they feel that it is possible to win decent rewards. Buying cache keys is already the most cost effective way to convert MC into cbills as far as I know.

In general, with gambling, the margin to the house is very small and they rely on large amounts of money being played to get their share. This document cites about 1% house margin for skilled blackjack players, 5,5% for stud poker and 2.7% on Roulette.

http://www.liquorand...asino_games.pdf

In MWO, the player needs to be enticed to spend real money to win virtual goods ... virtual goods whose only cost to the company is the opportunity cost of the player not purchasing something else. It isn't gambling ... it is a sales technique. Let's say the odds of winning a centurion are 1/1000 (as suggested above). A key costs 25MC. This means that on average every 1000 keys used will net one Centurion ... 25,000MC spent. A Centurion costs 1/10 or less of the MC spent.

On the other hand, maybe the mech is only 1/100 odds. It should be rare but the rewards can not be so rare that it discourages people from spending MC on winning. In fact, I'd suggest that the odds should be set so that the odds of winning would usually require about 50% of the MC required for an upfront purchase. This makes everything purchased by lottery cheaper BUT you don't get so select what you win, it is luck of the draw, however, the odds would be such that it would make purchasing keys a reasonable way to get random digital goods. Careful selection of what is made available would encourage secondary purchases and thus use the lottery system as a sales driver rather than the disincentive system it is right now.

P.S. The odds for MC prizes should be set at 100% or 101% rather than 50% since the MC could be used to purchase more keys and break the system.



This guy gets it.

Everything they give away is basically a "sunk" cost. PGI's mentality on crates should be that they would rather give good stuff away (that all their costs are done with) at a higher frequency in order to encourage people to buy keys for cash.

That way, PGI makes money buy selling keys while giving away goods that don't cost them anything (anymore), but players perceive to be "good value". A significantly higher frequency of good items would provide that perception of value to players.

Edited by TLBFestus, 19 September 2017 - 07:56 AM.


#33 Prof RJ Gumby

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 08:30 AM

My main gripe with caches is that they could do it a lot more immersive. I.e. you could get randomly 'rewarded' with a "destroyed" mech you killed/KMDDd on the battlefield (it would actually name the scrap after the mech you destroyed and remember the stuff in it).

Then you could just:
a. sell it for scap metal
b. pay c-bills for taking it apart for a random equipment/omnipod/decal it actually had (with a list of things you can be possibly salvaged)
c. pay for "premium" MC salvaging services that could also provide you with things like "a chance to making the mech operational again" (empty chassis+mechbay), "a credit card with X MC on it", "mechbay ownership title", "mech ownership title" (other mech), "purchase order for a cockpit item", "paint sample" (gives a colour) etc.

Would work very similar, but be much more immersive than some magic crates. You could gamble for getting more c-bills than scrap selling value or an item you could actually use, or use MC to make the mech husk you dragged from the battlefield like a supply cache.

Caches are ok for solaris, because it's a competition per se, rewards for battles should be more immersive.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 19 September 2017 - 08:34 AM.






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