127 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Shifty McSwift, on 25 September 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

The problem is the act of slamming into other mechs, at huge speeds, and continuing to move across or into them, causing actual rubber banding, which advanages the guy with stream DPS hugely, if that rubberbanding causes misses.

But this does not make it necessary to change MG's it would make collission needing a change, but PGI was not willing (thx to whiny pilots) to put a proper damage penalty into ramming. because it's nothing else than ramming, and a full speed light ramming into an assault would mostlikley crush it.

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 September 2017 - 08:14 AM.

[Mole]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 September 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Sounds more like a positioning problem on the larger mechs, or a piloting issue, because the Mist Lynx is far from the most mobile of lights (in fact the Commando and Locust put it to shame) and really shouldn't be hard to counter turn against unless you are already hurt at which point his job is to vulture you, that's about all lights are good for outside causing people to squirrel.

Maybe try using PPFLD? A pair of Gauss have no trouble ripping off arms on both the Cheetah or Lynx. Either way, the Lynx is far from the strongest light so why are people still bringing it up?


Keep in mind with reduced agility, how painful it is for most lights. All it takes is one good shot to ruin their day and even good light pilots can get caught flat-footed (these flat-footed windows are much larger than before). They are like assaults, they aren't kind to mistakes, the difference is assaults are rewarded for good play by being able to out damage almost all mechs at range.

Don't get me wrong, the whole "one shot and I'm down" thing happens sometimes in my lights. But when I'm running around in my lights most people have a real hard time hitting me. Maybe I'm just playing against potatoes, I don't know, but in my experience I can run up to most assault 'mechs in any light of my choice barring the slower clan ones such as the Adder, Kit Fox, and Cougar and be just fine so long as he doesn't get a whole bunch of people turning around to help him.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

You have to admit it's a little funny that you say it doesn't take much damage, then bring up an assault as an example, the latest cash-grab assault at that.

Your point? Assaults are other mechs that compete with lights, if you can't compare them then we have our answer why no one plays lights (hint it's because against anything but spuds they just aren't that great).

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

Just because a weapon/mech doesn't fit comp criteria isn't an excuse not to balance it. I think machine guns are slightly over-performing

Comp criteria is generally (there are exceptions, but MGs aren't special like LRMs or harassers) pretty much the definition of over-performing, particularly when a specific weapon is broken like you seem to think MGs are. So the question you need to be asking yourself is do you need to git gud like comp players so that they aren't the defining weapon?

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

and need a crit reduction, standardised ammo/ton, and probably a slight damage buff.

What exactly is standard?
SRMs = 200 DPT
LRMs = 180 DPT
AC10 = 200 DPT
Gauss = 150 DPT
other ACs = 150 DPT
RAC5 = 225 DPT
RAC2 = 240 DPT
LMG = 175 DPT
MG = 200 DPT
HMG = 140 DPT
MRM = 300 DPT
ATM = 90-180-270 DPT
There is no true standard, the only thing that seems to be true is that HMGs really suck for DPT for some reason.

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

And it's not at all a "git gud" case because half the time I'm the one with the LMGs

LMGs are overperforming relative to the other MGs, sure, but that doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. I mean I'm ok with raw damage coming up and crits being reduced to make it less RNG based if that is what your suggesting, but performance wise, they need to stay the same otherwise we will see them disappear yet again.

And yes, this still can be a case of "git gud" because assaults are harder to play than the rest of the classes and seems to attract many players who really shouldn't be taking assaults.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 September 2017 - 07:01 AM.

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

Reeeeee machineguns killed me from behind call the whambulance, seriously, wait till the missle even and the laser vomit event that was confirmed by pgi, you think your salty now? Lmfao gg, and sto frontloading :3

[Mystere]

Shifty McSwift, on 25 September 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

Again, it's not the tactics so much as the actual way they play out with the current mechanics, and as a brawler in a fast moving heavy, lights in my butt is only a problem when I am already in over my head, so it doesn't effect me so much in that case. Also in the cases where it does effect me, usually in assault mechs, again it is only a real issue when I am already being swarmed and bound to die anyway (the issue of butt hugging lights that is), that is not so much the issue at all.

The problem is the act of slamming into other mechs, at huge speeds, and continuing to move across or into them, causing actual rubber banding, which advanages the guy with stream DPS hugely, if that rubberbanding causes misses.

The other thing that occurs frequently and kind of annoys me in every case is the old light slamming into your move path and stopping you dead in your tracks, no matter how big or fast you are moving, dead halted usually in the field of fire of many enemies, and sometimes for long periods, if that light gets a "good" position in your legs.

Then please, completely separate the "leg humping"/slamming issue from MGs.

JC Daxion, on 26 September 2017 - 12:43 AM, said:

I personally think they should just CAP the crit at some point. I don't wanna see if you just have a couple machine guns they are useless to take out weapons.. But these 6-8 machine gun boats are ridiculous.. you can loose all your weapons in a few seconds once you lost armor.


To me, boating flamers should be limited on how much heat they can add, and machine guns how much crit..


I've fought against tons of builds.. Nothing strips out weapons like machine guns.. You will loose a large weapon in a few seconds, every single time with zero time to react. Typically a weapon has to be fired, you take damage you can react and at least have a chance that it won't crit out. Machine gun boats, will strip you in a few seconds.. happens every time, and that is the issue. It's not so much the damage, its the fact you just loose every weapon so fast.

Hold on a second!

Boating MGs and flamers -- terrible weapons in small numbers -- are an issue, but boating any other weapon is not?

[Verilligo]

I think what he means by standardized ammo is to pick some damage per ton amount strictly for MGs and balance the MG ammo counts more closely around it. Basically, like a lot of people suggest, buff up the HMG ammo/ton. Similarly I think he wants to change damage to help match in exchange for crit reduction.

[Snazzy Dragon]

adamts01, on 26 September 2017 - 01:53 AM, said:

How will dual guass remove a 42 point arm?

Very easily. There is hardly any armor compared to structure and gauss crits still do a lot of extra damage to structure even with the nerf. The backup lasers you have with gauss are more than sufficient enough to finish the rest of the meager HP pool off

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mole, on 26 September 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, the whole "one shot and I'm down" thing happens sometimes in my lights. But when I'm running around in my lights most people have a real hard time hitting me. Maybe I'm just playing against potatoes, I don't know, but in my experience I can run up to most assault 'mechs in any light of my choice barring the slower clan ones such as the Adder, Kit Fox, and Cougar and be just fine so long as he doesn't get a whole bunch of people turning around to help him.

That's more due to spud players than anything. In the end, the problem boils down to this:

• A decent chunk of players in solo queue think lights OP despite being the least populated class consistently
  
• Lights are considered the weakest class in comp because they generally serve as vultures rather than play makers

[JC Daxion]

Iron Heel, on 26 September 2017 - 03:27 AM, said:

What is needed is a situational awareness boost.

that is not the issue at all.. I've known where the boat is.. I've been attacking said boat.. and watched it strip all my weapons in seconds. The whole this only happens to oblivious people is total crap. If you have lost your armor, and you get hit in that torso, your large weapon is gone instantly. No other weapon can do that.

When you would rather take your chances against a fully armed assault head on rather than a crit monster, something is wrong.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

That's more due to spud players than anything. In the end, the problem boils down to this:

• A decent chunk of players in solo queue think lights OP despite being the least populated class consistently
  
• Lights are considered the weakest class in comp because they generally serve as vultures rather than play makers

I certainly don't think lights are OP.. the crit system to loosing weapons are.. that is the issue.

[Rovertoo]

NlGHTBlRD, on 25 September 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

Like how ATMs are OP 120meters to 300 meters, UP further away, and useless up close?
Like how LBX is OP <100meters, mediocre 2-300 meters, useless>400 meters?
PPCs...

These would be fair points except for the fact that the MG user doesnt have any control over the armor of the enemy~ Weapons with a downside like that is something that can be outplayed and accounted for, with MGs its just a waiting game.

[Almond Brown]

The Amazing Atomic Spaniel, on 25 September 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

Yeah - MGs are way too powerful now. Not fun. Time to scale them back.

And for almost 6 years now, what used to be said about MG's was

"Yeah - MGs are way too under powered now. Not fun. Time to scale them up!"

The MWO Forum goers are going to have make up their f'ing minds eventually right?

[Curccu]

Almond Brown, on 26 September 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

The MWO Forum goers are going to have make up their f'ing minds eventually right?

Well we are not hivemind or anything like that we have our own opinions, some of them are bad but hey it happens

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JC Daxion, on 26 September 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

I certainly don't think lights are OP.. the crit system to loosing weapons are.. that is the issue.

That's fair, losing weapons so fast is unfun and offers terrible counter play, but so long as it is understood reducing crit chances or potential MUST come with raw damage increases to keep the level of performance similar.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 September 2017 - 01:43 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

That's fair, losing weapons so fast is unfun and offers terrible counter play, but so long as it is understood reducing crit chances or potentialy MUST come with raw damage increases to keep the level of performance similar.

I never said other wise.. I am strickly talking about loosing your weapons in seconds, while barely taking damage. That is the issue to me with these boats. It's not the amount of damage they make to the structure, its how fast the weapons vanish. I've had my AC20 lost the instant my armor is gone so many times to these boats, and i am not talking just from behind. AC/UAC 10's gone almost as fast.. I have not been playing the larger missile aka MRM or LRM's for the last few months.

It also doesn't crit out a bunch of lasers as fast.. its mainly the giant AC's, but my guess the large MRM or LRM's are susceptible.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JC Daxion, on 26 September 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

It also doesn't crit out a bunch of lasers as fast.. its mainly the giant AC's, but my guess the large MRM or LRM's are susceptible.

That's because lasers have crit padding through DHS.

[OrmsbyGore]

GrimRiver, on 25 September 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

DPS monsters?

That's news to me, guess I'm gonna go replace all the AC5/LB5/UAC5 on my mechs now.

I guess all the 5 rating AC's will also get a nerf too since my CTF-4X 4xAC5 can pump out 20 damage every 1.34 seconds if people want a GH limit to effective DPS builds?

This isn't an apples to apples comparison, as the 5 rated acs have cooldown times and it becomes harder to hit targets as they get further away. By contrast, mgs behave like ballistic lasers that get crit bonuses when armor is removed

[DivineTomatoes]

Oh look another, "lets nerf MGs into oblivion again" thread.

[Nightbird]

But it killz me, nerf it!

[Trissila]

JC Daxion, on 26 September 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

I've had my AC20 lost the instant my armor is gone so many times to these boats, and i am not talking just from behind. AC/UAC 10's gone almost as fast.. I have not been playing the larger missile aka MRM or LRM's for the last few months.

It also doesn't crit out a bunch of lasers as fast.. its mainly the giant AC's, but my guess the large MRM or LRM's are susceptible.

It's almost like giant weapons take up a bunch of crit slots, and critting a weapon in any slot destroys it, ergo running exposed giant weapons around a crit-seeking build is not an optimal strategy. Heavens forbid that massive PPFLD weapons have some sort of weakness.

Quote

I never said other wise.. I am strickly talking about loosing your weapons in seconds, while barely taking damage. That is the issue to me with these boats. It's not the amount of damage they make to the structure, its how fast the weapons vanish.

As opposed to losing your weapons in seconds while also losing the component (and your arm as well, if it was a ST) when you get alpha'd by literally anything else. From a much, MUCH safer distance. And on a platform that doesn't evaporate as soon as it gets sneezed on.

Had a Raven come up behind my team on Tourmaline the other day, running through the back and towards the front lines, back towards his team. I was in my splat Huntsman with 6 ASRM6s. I spotted him, carefully lined up the shot, and POP. No more leg. He died before my launchers could reload.

It's amazing what happens when you don't tunnel-vision straight forward and actually keep an eye out for what's going on around your flanks.

[adamts01]

Lily from animove, on 26 September 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

But this does not make it necessary to change MG's it would make collission needing a change, but PGI was not willing (thx to whiny pilots) to put a proper damage penalty into ramming. because it's nothing else than ramming, and a full speed light ramming into an assault would mostlikley crush it.

Collision should have been worked out a very long time ago, along with engine explosions.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

I mean I'm ok with raw damage coming up and crits being reduced to make it less RNG based if that is what your suggesting

That's exactly what I've been suggesting. I never once said nerf. I swear, people on here see a balance thread and just jump right in with git gud comments, it's just ridiculous.

Mystere, on 26 September 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Then please, completely separate the "leg humping"/slamming issue from MGs. Hold on a second! Boating MGs and flamers -- terrible weapons in small numbers -- are an issue, but boating any other weapon is not?

I hate ghost heat, but that's how other boats are managed. My problem with LMGs is the crit rate, and capping the crit rate is a PGI-like band aid. Ideally I'd like recoil, from alphas.... but, you know, we can't be nerfing skill......

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

[color=#CCCCCC]A decent chunk of players in solo queue think lights OP despite being the least populated class consistently[/color]

I really don't hear complaining like in the past, when literally half the population just couldn't land hits. Now that everyone can hit them, there are just a few that are pissy that they take so many hits. I still think they're weaker than everything, and I wish we had a more open world game where cheap and weak lights were a thing. But in this arena mode they really need a buff to be equal to everything else.