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Mechs That Need Adjustment (Warning! Opinions! + Massive Post)


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#1 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:09 PM

I'll be judging more from the comp and group play side of things rather than your average QP player, so there's bound to be disagreements. If you're in the "I want everything to be nerfed and clans to be removed from the game group" you definitely will not like this post, and that's okay, because power creep will never end, and clans aren't going to disappear either. Far too late for that road.

Lights as a whole: Agility buffs. Engine decoupling hurt a lot of them and they continue to be the weakest class, with the fewest players, and the lowest average scores, despite the fact that many players can't hit them due to personal error or inadequate hardware to run MWO above 15 FPS. And streaks exist for those players anyway.

Locusts: Moderate offensive buffs. Post skill tree they've been pretty lackluster even with NuTech. Bad players can't hit them but within the competitive environment it is my understanding that between the lack of double heat sinks to work with, liability to die in one shot, and lack of offensive quirks to make it worth the risk, they are never chosen over something like a javelin or a wolfhound, or even the firestarter (jumpjets and DHS advantage).

Wolfhounds: Rollback on last patches' nerfs. They were unnecessary.

Spiders: These mechs are awful right now. Arguably, they haven't been remotely good since the days of their broken hitreg, with the 5K only serving as a vulture just before the skill tree because the other options at the time they were used again weren't compelling.

Jenners, IIC and IS: The walking toilet seats aren't in a good spot, especially the IS variants. Agility and offensive buffs are the logical place to start (defensive buffs ain't gonna help the terrible geometry out).

Firestarters: These just need some offensive bumps (flamer range doesn't really count).

Panthers: Stronger offensive quirks. They are slow, large, and usually undergunned compared to other lights, and even with the high quirks some of them have they generally aren't considered better than an urbanmech.

Urbies: I actually think they're mostly okay, and they tend to do well in 1v1 engagements with other lights and some of the other mediums with similar firepower, but the K9 and the R60L are easily the stronger variants. The other two should be the ones buffed, considering their weaker hardpoint configurations.

Ravens: Post skill tree there isn't much reason to use them. Offensive quirks to bring them up to par with their old quirks + modules would be lovely. The 3L and huginn are easily the worst of the bunch (ECM is old news and generally considered a waste of SP, and lasers draw a clearly visible line to your position anyway.)

Commando: Right arm armor buffs pls.

Myth Lynx: Arms fall off at a sneee, their agility is pretty subpar for a light, and the cAP is useless. Unlock the cAP and give the non G arms (gotta appease the QQ MG OP crowd, right?) some more HP.

Arctic Cheater: Can we normalize its rate of heat loss, like every other light that has less than a 250 rated engine? Kthanks

Cute Fox: Still suck if you don't have the purifier pods. I'd advocate buffing ALL of the non purifier side torso omni pods.

Cougar and Adder: Offensive quirk bump. They're already pretty wide and slow targets. Stronger set of 8s might be the way to go at first.

Cicadas: They're glass cannons, without the cannon part. They should all be brought up to par the pre skill tree Cicada 2B.

Phoenix Hawks: The Master Chief suffers from lots of really awful hardpoint mixes on some of its variants. Those variants deserve some boosts.

Vindicator: Despite having some of the largest quirks of all the underpowered mechs, they still struggle to see usage because of just how poor their geometry and hardpoint mixes are. I know McGral18 has mentioned more missile hardpoints being in the files for them before, and I think bringing these onto the field along with some MRM specific quirks could provide them with a niche they've always wanted to fill.

Centurions: Offensive quirks. They were already pretty suboptimal due to power creep, but the nerfs they received from the skill tree update pretty much killed their applications, particularly in the case of the -D; they don't really get to use NuTech quite like some of the other chassis do, either.

Inner Sphere Hunchbacks: I know I called for the nerf of the 4SP in particular, but the reality is that it was already the worst variant, next to the 4J. It should get its defensive quirks back, and the chassis as a whole should get their offensive quirks nudged in the right direction so that they "compete" with their overpowered clan counterparts just a bit better.

Trebuchet: Most of us know the nickname they have so affectionately received. Stronger missile quirks would be welcome in helping them live up to their name, rather than their nickname-- no one likes a trebus***.

Kintaros: They're in the same boat with the trebuchets.

Uziel: Armor quirks or bust. Some real weapon quirks would be nice too. They continue to be, at the very best, entirely mediocre mechs.

Wolverines: They suffer from having really awful variants, or variants that rely too heavily on a flimsy arm. Offense + defense buffs are in order.

Shadow hawks: These really just need some slightly better offensive quirks to give them flavor, but they still have jumpjets and high mounts to work with. The weaker variants are the ones that rely on the missile slot in their head, however, which hurts their ability to brawl; SRM quirks are in order for these variants. The 2D in particular is the most gimped, in my opinion, with two of their missile hardpoints being in the worst places for an IS mech.

Ice Fridge: Their lack of tonnage and jumpjets continues to hold them back, but moderate heat generation quirks would be a good first step.

Sad Cat: Still limping along after their previous nerfs from the skill tree and their quirk pass, the sad cat continues to be a one trick pony; a trick that another pony happens to do a lot better, anyway. I'd advocate for a rollback on their quirks before the pass and after the skill tree to start with.

Huntsman: Buffs to the suboptimal omni pods and set of 8s, but the stronger, more meta compatible omni pods should not be included in any buffs.

Dragon: Revert the change to the 1C! It was finally in an okay spot! ;_;

Quickdraws: Even with some of the more intensive quirks they're overhsadowed by night gyrs, timber wolves, grasshoppers, warhammers, marauder 3R, and arguably the linebackers. Offensive buffs would be nice.

Archers: They continue to have one of the worst geometries in the game, with a low cockpit to boot. Their shoulders stand up extremely tall, especially when the missile bays are open; these mechs are honestly pretty sad. LRM quirks won't really do much since LRMs continue to be bottom of the barrel weapons for killing bottom of the barrel players, so stronger defensive quirks and boosted agility are probably the way to go.

Jagermechs: In the face of ATMs, heavy lasers, RACs, and MRMs, the jagermech's slab of a torso section continue to hinder it. Defensive armor quirks and an agility boost are an obvious choice.

Rifleman: How come the hero gets the best quirks? Bring the other variants up to speed.

Cataphracts: A nudge up to their existing offensive quirks could go a long way for the cataphracts, but they continue to have slab hitboxes and low mounts with said quirks.

Black Knights: Remember when they had quirks that barely made up for their low mounts and awkward profile? Yeah, those would be nice to have again.

>At this point I got really sad to see just how many IS mechs I've mentioned and reflected upon :/

Warhammers, Timber Wolves: Slight bump upwards to their agility.

Marauders: The 3R continues to hold out as the best variant, owing to its heat generation quirk for PPCs and solid structure quirks. The other variants would probably appreciate having the same benefits.

IS Orions: Offensive quirks, so that their damage output at least matches the clan counterpart's lighter weaponry, better ranges, and higher DHS count.

Mad Dog: Set of 8 buffs to weaker variants' set of 8s. Mad dog C continues to have the best shield arms for whatever reason.

Summoner: Buffs to the side torsos without hardpoints and stronger set of 8s

Linebacker: Take half of their armor bonuses and convert it into structure, to reduce their overall tankiness in FP rushes while still remaining useful in other applications. It would still have the same amount of bonus HP but less armor and more structure, to clarify.

Awesome: Give it Awesome PPC quirks. Then, it might fulfill its destiny of being somewhat awesome.

Victor: SRM spread and ballistic cooldown quirks to their somewhat weaker variants, but the defensive quirks give the stronger variants a decent niche pick.

Zeus: Still suffers from slab syndrome, especially after their upscaling. Armored side torsos and boosted offensive quirks would do it some good

Stalkers: Agility bump pls

Highlanders (IS and Clan): offensive boosts, but buffing assaults' jumpjets could work too I guess?!?!

Banshee: bring back the wubshee!

Annihilator, Atlas, and King Crab: acceleration and deceleration buffs would be great

Mr. Gargles: Energy heat generation reduction for various different lasers for each variant. It almost came back but then the cSPL nerf happened, which was warranted but too extreme for him and the executioner.

Executioner: Something something buff jumpjets on assaults

Mad Cat MK II: Easily the best assault in the game, with the Deathstrike being the worst offender. The -1 and the Deathstrike are the strongest of the bunch.

Kodiaks: The variants other than the 3 still suffer for it.Their agility should be boosted.

Dire Wolf: Honestly, it's not as bad as it's made out to be outside of solo play; there are just a lot of sub-optimal omni pods that could benefit from boosts and the unnecessary head armor reduction is overdue for removal.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 28 September 2017 - 12:10 PM.


#2 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:12 PM

Posted Image

#3 Verilligo

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:28 PM

I mean... okay, sure. Why not. I'd also vote to give the Awesomes a unique quirk that lets it fire one more PPC of any type before it gets ghost heat penalty. I mean it's wide as a barn door with low-slung mounts, it may as well be stupidly pinpoint lethal to compensate.

#4 Composite Armour

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:38 PM

Stalkers to 325 engine cap!

#5 Bud Crue

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:48 PM

So pretty much just buffs across the board...other than the Linebackers and MK-lls?
Geesh. What did those two ever do to you?
;)

Also what about some Enforcer love and giving the Griffin back their agility!?

Edit 2:

And can we can get the negative quirks on the Timber removed finally? And how about the return of the thunderbolt 5ss quirks ala mid 2015 for some REAL balance! :)

Edited by Bud Crue, 28 September 2017 - 12:54 PM.


#6 Bombast

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:52 PM

View PostBud Crue, on 28 September 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

So pretty much just buffs across the board...other than the Linebackers and MK-lls?


And the Catapult.

#7 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:59 PM

View PostBombast, on 28 September 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:


And the Catapult.


I don't play them enough to have a solid opinion and i'm not sure just how much their armor quirks do for them.

#8 Nema Nabojiv

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:04 PM

View PostSnazzy Dragon, on 28 September 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

Urbies:
......
The other two should be the ones buffed, considering their weaker hardpoint configurations.

Didn't read past that.

Well ok, I did, and you didn't mentioned night gyr's horrible agility. I consider this a major offence against any reasonable balance suggestion :)

#9 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:10 PM

View PostBud Crue, on 28 September 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

So pretty much just buffs across the board...other than the Linebackers and MK-lls?
Geesh. What did those two ever do to you?
Posted Image

Also what about some Enforcer love and giving the Griffin back their agility!?

Edit 2:

And can we can get the negative quirks on the Timber removed finally? And how about the return of the thunderbolt 5ss quirks ala mid 2015 for some REAL balance! Posted Image


1. I'm of the mind that all mechs should be equally good rather than equally bad.

2. I don't play griffins or enforcers, so I left it up to whoever wants to comment on them.

3. I totally forgot about the thunderbolts. I'd like to see them make a return as well

#10 Cloves

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:17 PM

View PostNema Nabojiv, on 28 September 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

Didn't read past that.

Well ok, I did, and you didn't mentioned night gyr's horrible agility. I consider this a major offence against any reasonable balance suggestion Posted Image



Number of Urbies in the championships:0
Number of Night Gyrs ?

#11 Bud Crue

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:18 PM

View PostSnazzy Dragon, on 28 September 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:


1. I'm of the mind that all mechs should be equally good rather than equally bad.


Alas, I can not fathom PGI agreeing with you on the vast majority of your proposals. I agree with some of them, but given what WASN'T touched in this months balance pass, after 4 months of "closely monitoring in game performance and balance" and given Chris Lowery's approach toward quirks in general (minimalist in theory, while grudging allowance of significant ones to remain on truley bad mechs only); I just don't envision PGI going along with the idea of such a general buffing.

#12 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:24 PM

View PostNema Nabojiv, on 28 September 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

Didn't read past that.

Well ok, I did, and you didn't mentioned night gyr's horrible agility. I consider this a major offence against any reasonable balance suggestion Posted Image

Night Gyrs have limited agility for a reason, even with Gauss/PPC nerfed they are still great mechs because they can also do Gauss vomit (2 Gauss, ERLL, 3 ERML or 2 Gauss, 2 ERLL, 2 ERML).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 September 2017 - 01:24 PM.


#13 MechaBattler

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:27 PM

I think it would help if they also broadened some of the quirks. Like the loyalty wolverine has fat 40% jam reduction on UAC5. But imagine it applied to UAC10? That'd be really nice :D

Also what about speed tweak quirks? More varied quirks in general might help.

#14 JediPanther

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:53 PM

View PostSnazzy Dragon, on 28 September 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:


I don't play them enough to have a solid opinion and i'm not sure just how much their armor quirks do for them.


I have most the Catapults. You have to really focus on how you want to play them and skill tree for that focus. for the jester it runs hot so I'd go for mech ops and fire power for all the cooling and heat gen nodes. The C4 I spec into the missile side of the tree and do the same for the C1 as they both are still good lrm mechs. I use the A1 as a lrm/srm mix so it uses a mix of sensor,firepower and mech ops.

The K2 is my heavy ballistic brawler. It earns the nick name battle cat again and again with max survival tree and mobility. Torso twist like you've had too much coffee and it can tank a lot. The lfe makes it better but the std 200 and case for big guns works well too. One heavy guass and 4 mls is scary good.

As for the mechs listed here's my options from a mainly solo qp side:

Lights as a whole: Agility buffs. Engine decoupling hurt a lot of them and they continue to be the weakest class, with the fewest players, and the lowest average scores, despite the fact that many players can't hit them due to personal error or inadequate hardware to run MWO above 15 FPS.

I agree but I run the locust as my primary light. It would be unplayable at under 30fps. I run the gtx 660 which holds constant 30-40fps except in the thickest of gun and missile spam at low settings. Many people just can't hit a target moving that fast. On very rare occasions you can hit it up close with an ac if it isn't moving erratically to doge.

Locusts: Moderate offensive buffs. Post skill tree they've been pretty lackluster even with NuTech. Bad players can't hit them but within the competitive environment it is my understanding that between the lack of double heat sinks to work with, liability to die in one shot, and lack of offensive quirks to make it worth the risk, they are never chosen over something like a javelin or a wolfhound, or even the firestarter (jumpjets and DHS advantage).

Since I haven't done cw/fp in a while I'll agree. The worst thing about the locust is the forced 3 heat sinks with the max xl engine. Go dhs on it and you gimp it along with lfe. With max xl and the mandatory 3 h/hs you have roughly 6.5 to 7 tons left for weapons,ammo, and a toy like tc mk1 or bap.

Wolfhounds: I'm starting to dislike them as much as achs and they can tank a lot.

Spiders: These mechs are awful right now. They've been awful for years. Only the ecm one is worth using but for an ecm light you have far better options on both is and clan side. Only useful for trolling or just to play with max 12 j and jump tree. Save the gxp for better mechs you'll actually use.

Jenners both fractions: Explode and die worse that the Enterprise in the movies. 2c is marginally better than is due to cxl with less weight than lfe.

Firestarters: With flamers doing such op damage as .01/second these mechs are a joke. The only good thing about them is the Ember's 25%rof with an ac 2 for trolling. They are a poor man's gehto mist g or ach wanabe.

Panthers: Max survival tree and they can face hug like an alien xenomorph. The hero is especially good as it has its weapons on both arms. The rest suffer from knee level skyscraper sized weapon arm that is very easy to shoot off. Missile only ct means zero to laughable secondary weapon. Can't win duels against other lights and much run for team from another light.

Urbies: In solo q they are like an atlas hit by a shrink ray if one has maxed out survival and mobility trees. fun to use but a big ac hit or guass takes them out fast.

Ravens: 4x still fun for ac and mg shenanigans plus the only variant with jump jets. 3l mostly found in the er ll build, can be anoyying as a narc-er. Stealth on it is great for moving around the match early. Huggin: It can out lrm the stalker 3h on lrm range. It also has the longest lrm range out of the 81 mechs I have.

Commandos: Only have the tdk and I haven't done much with it. Needs side and rear torso buffs as the arms fall off from just a few hits. Runs as fast/er than locust when full speed tweak.

Myth Lynx: Never used one. Didn't bother to get one to join in the mg fad. Annoying mech unless you've got open armor.

Artic cheeater: OP EZ mode when you pilot pirmarily is lights with is xls. Ran the trial a few times and got bored of it. Never bought one. Way to easy to kill things and no death on side torso allows you to survive things the is xl lights normally die to. any nerf to it is a good one as it is THE clan light.

Cute fox: Rarly seen due to ach being supior and myth g mg fad. Makes a great support and anti missile platform with ams.
Could use a quirk for more ams ammo per ton and less heat gen.

Adder and Cougar: Used the adr-prime. It makes an ok support mech. I'm waiting for c-bill cougar to drop.

Cicadas: Rarly seen even the X5 is as rare as a bigfoot encounter. Could use more med pulse heat gen and cool down.

Phoenix Hawks: Don't have any. Looks fast and fun. They need armor buffs. Legging them is best way to deal with them.

Vindicator: No exp with them.

Centurions: Agree with what you posted. Even with a lot of firepower nodes the cent-d isn't as great or as fun as it once was with the lbx 10. The rest I've left unused with no skills.

IS HBKs: 4g(f) still a good ac 20 mech. They all are outguned and outclassed by their clan counter parts. More mobility and cool down on them would be nice.

Wolverines: Pretty much meh all around. Not sure what could improve them.

Shadow Hawks: At 55tons they can use hvy guass. They are fun for mixed builds and a good is mech for newer players.

The rest of the mechs I don't have so can't comment on those.

#15 Rainer Frost

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:53 PM

View PostSnazzy Dragon, on 28 September 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

Executioner: Something something buff jumpjets on assaults

Definitly needs more of something.

Up the engine cap on Blackjacks while we are at it.

#16 Nema Nabojiv

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:57 PM

View PostCloves, on 28 September 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Number of Urbies in the championships:0
Number of Night Gyrs ?

Championships are irrelevant. We're playing quickplay here. That is THE game. Not some half-dead faction play and not championships.
And all gyrs I see in quickplay are lrm boats. Because the poor thing cant defend itself anyway so no point to even try.

#17 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:04 PM

View PostNema Nabojiv, on 28 September 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Championships are irrelevant. We're playing quickplay here.

That's still relevant because they are obviously good if they are getting used in the championships. Just like how poptarts were considered dead in quickplay but used in the last championships until 8 months later when people realized poptarts were strong finally and that's all people saw.

Meta takes a while to trickle down, and Gauss vomit Night Gyrs are harder to play than Gauss/PPC was (and even that wasn't prevalent in solo queue).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 September 2017 - 02:05 PM.


#18 H I A S

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:14 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

That's still relevant because they are obviously good if they are getting used in the championships. Just like how poptarts were considered dead in quickplay but used in the last championships until 8 months later when people realized poptarts were strong finally and that's all people saw.

Meta takes a while to trickle down, and Gauss vomit Night Gyrs are harder to play than Gauss/PPC was (and even that wasn't prevalent in solo queue).


Average Joe on the brown sea is always 6 months + behind the Meta.

#19 Nema Nabojiv

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:23 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

That's still relevant because they are obviously good if they are getting used in the championships. Just like how poptarts were considered dead in quickplay but used in the last championships until 8 months later when people realized poptarts were strong finally and that's all people saw.

Meta takes a while to trickle down, and Gauss vomit Night Gyrs are harder to play than Gauss/PPC was (and even that wasn't prevalent in solo queue).

Championships as well as any other kind of voice coordinated game have different meta. They may be good in that meta but that meta itself is in turn irrelevant because too few people play in championships and stuff.

#20 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:29 PM

View PostNema Nabojiv, on 28 September 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

Championships as well as any other kind of voice coordinated game have different meta.

Not really, the meta for comp is not THAT different from QP. A Night Gyr is still going to be effective in QP just as it would in comp, just like comp however it requires smarter positioning which as spud queue is any evidence of, most people like some of the basics when it comes to positioning.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 September 2017 - 02:30 PM.






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