35 replies to this topic

[KHAN ATTAKHAN]

Everyone here knows I'm an LRM freak, every damn mech in the stable carries them, I say no to any extra velocity or duration fix or any other ridiculous ideas, you don't need uncle Russ and the gang fixing more things by typing on that keyboard( they do that enough and look at the state of this game) learn to lurm my boy, lrm users are not there for the kill they are missile support and only take the kill if opportunity is there, they suppress enemy mechs, if you can't learn to use the easiest weapon in the game then maybe you should look to becoming a brawler....
WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE LEARN TO USE YOUR WEAPONS SYSTEMS FOR WHAT THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR...........
Do you use a knife to shovel peas into your gob??, do you use your closet as a toilet?? NO.......
Learn to use your weapon systems properly, it's not hard....
Well maybe it is for some.
Wait what am I saying.... .this is MWO I forgot....LOL'z

Edited by KHAN ATTAKHAN, 30 September 2017 - 01:51 AM.

[Dogstar]

Kroete, on 29 September 2017 - 03:11 AM, said:

Then we would need umus ...

10% more velocity and tieing the missilewarning to a working ams (need ams, ammo and not turned off) would be enough as a first and maybe last step.

Tying the missile warning to having AMS fitted would be a splendid idea. The command console should also have that feature in that case.

On the other hand it would almost completely invalidate chucking LRM5s at people in order to scare them into hiding

[InvictusLee]

As an indirect fire system, LRMS are OP as hell in the real world, traveling for thousands of miles, not meters, and accelerating faster and faster on their way to their target.

If MWO LRMS we brought inline with the real world physics, they would be mega OP.

[panzer1b]

All dis would do is encourage more people to spam LRMs at stupid ranges (500-1K). Thing is, LRMs are actually best used between 300 and 500m, farther then 500 and there is a very good chance they wont connect, closer then 300 and you start putting yourself at risk of being rushed unless ur in a deathball or something. I always facepaml whenever i see people lobbing LRMs at 800m, at targets that they have no hope of maintaining a lock on before they either get behind cover or kill/rout whoever is spotting them. WIth the possible exception of narc when cover is scarce, you should never be using LRMs past 500m...

People just need to understand how LRMs work, despite not being a weapon id use myself (every once in a while i try em, every time im dissapointed that they do measly damage, spread everywhere, weigh too much, and generally suck. ATMs on the other hand actually work well if you know what you are doing (and enemy doesnt have too much AMS). Also, unlike LRMs, ATMs have that murder-zone where it takes 2-3 salvos to neuter if not kill every mech in the game (ATM-36 does so much raw damage that even its its spread itll obliterate people). Yeah ATMs still dont stand up to gauss/laser vomit (which has never been bad in the game), but at least they are deadly in their one niche role, unlike LRMs that are mediocre to bad at every role (airstrikes/arty are better at indirect fire fyi ...

[XDevilsChariotX]

How about we just remove lrms and any other guided missle systems? There pretty much useless and a crutch for so many. Playing against Clan in this Faction Event, the lurm spam is just ridiculous when 1 laser AMS overheats ya cuz so many easy mode missles are being fired. It's getting pathetic to be honest.

Edited by XDevilsChariotX, 01 October 2017 - 12:12 AM.

[Kroete]

XDevilsChariotX, on 01 October 2017 - 12:11 AM, said:

There pretty much useless and a crutch for so many.
... the lurm spam is just ridiculous when 1 laser AMS overheats ya cuz so many easy mode missles are being fired.

Useless or crutch, cant be both?
And why do you take laserams that overheats you if they are useless?
And why are there so many missiles when they are useless?
And why they are useless, if they can overheat you at 1000m range?
And why do you want a useless weapon removed?

I dont understand this contradictions ...

Edit:
And why are there so much contradictions in 3 rows?

Edited by Kroete, 01 October 2017 - 01:42 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

XDevilsChariotX, on 01 October 2017 - 12:11 AM, said:

How about we just remove lrms and any other guided missle systems? There pretty much useless and a crutch for so many. Playing against Clan in this Faction Event, the lurm spam is just ridiculous when 1 laser AMS overheats ya cuz so many easy mode missles are being fired. It's getting pathetic to be honest.

Looks like someone needs to git gud.

[adamts01]

Curccu, on 29 September 2017 - 05:26 AM, said:

So further away you shoot them more useless AMS becomes? not going to do much against some LRM40 salvo that is flying 360m/s

Good point, but it doesn't have to be 360m/s. They start at 160, what if they ended at 260? OP just threw some numbers out there. That would let AMS still work, combined with the very long warning you'd get. And if you were in the open long enough to get wrecked by LRMs, you'd get wrecked by ERPPCs and ERLLs anyway.

[oldradagast]

Kroete, on 01 October 2017 - 01:31 AM, said:

Useless or crutch, cant be both?

Agreed. Sadly, it's a common belief on the MWO forum that LRM's are somehow both "EZ mode" that grants you thousands of free points of damage per game while also being "useless" on any mech. Lunatic reasoning like that is why I can't take much of anything else said on this forum seriously when it comes to game balance. About the only reasoning worse is the crackpot excuses used to justify Farming Play (Faction Play) and the still unresolved issue of PUG's and randoms regularly being shredded by organized teams.

As for laser AMS, why is anybody still using that? And if using it overheats your mech, that's not "proof that LRM's are powerful." It's proof that laser AMS sucks on anything but a heat-free build (Gauss or machine guns.) I thought everyone figured that out weeks ago.

Edited by oldradagast, 01 October 2017 - 06:30 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

The6thMessenger, on 29 September 2017 - 02:52 AM, said:

I would say that the problem with LRMs at long ranges is that there's so much time in between that it's plently of time to get to cover, and counter it. But what if LRMs have a fixed time in reaching a target?

Increasing velocity over time is something that's been suggested before. If it's possible? Yes. LRMs suffer from glacial velocity, and that translates to an effective range that's about half of how far one actually travels.

IMHO, if it takes longer than three seconds to go from launch to target, it's past the point of accurate. While you can get that on a few maps with minimal cover, it's more that it's simply harder to get to cover in those areas- the LRM is no more accurate there than anywhere else, evasion is only tougher.

Wouldn't be bad for ATMs either- as they lose damage stages, increase velocity much like a multistage rocket.

[Brain Cancer]

Dogstar, on 30 September 2017 - 02:26 AM, said:

Tying the missile warning to having AMS fitted would be a splendid idea. The command console should also have that feature in that case.

On the other hand it would almost completely invalidate chucking LRM5s at people in order to scare them into hiding

Considering AMS these days just reduces LRM 5s to chaff, "scaring" people with them is kinda silly. Nothing should be reducing damage to zero from any weapon system.

It'd be nice if instead of obliterating salvos completely, AMS simply slapped a damage debuff on whatever passed by, to a maximum determined by the chassis' AMS boosts. That way, it'd stop completely negating smaller launchers entirely.

[Vellron2005]

Personally, I don't feel like any fix for LRMs is needed. They work great for me.

Sure, they could be a bit faster and spread less, but that would possibly be OP on some mechs..

The problem with LRMs is that they have like 10+ counters, and people are often mislead by their range, so they don't know how to use them effectively.

LRMs are NOT the fire&forget people think them to be, and actually take a high degree of skill to use effectively, so people want them to be "fixed" and turned into a fire and forget for lots of damage weapon.

No can do guys..

[Brain Cancer]

It takes a high level of skill just to attempt to thread LRMs past the six zillion counters they currently have.

Considering we can burn out someone's torso in one heavy laser blast, it really doesn't seem like any reasonable buff to LRMs could "OP" them.

"OP" would be "everyone mounts AMS, LRM user doesn't even notice."

[Athom83]

A better thing to do is fix velocity. Currently, "Velocity" in game is basically just outright speed. Velocity is essentially speed over distance, meaning the distance moved from its starting point within a given time (average of speed). Due to having an arced flightpath, having a velocity constant of 160m/s means the speed of the missile is constantly changing during its flight.

So lets start off with some assumptions; When shooting off at max range it seems the height of the missile reaches around 200m at the midpoint of 450m, so we can assume it is reaching about a quarter of its range in height. We are also assuming the orgin point of the missiles is ground level (0m) instead of the height of the mount on the battlemech (usually around 10m) and is hitting ground level (0m) instead of around center mass of a mech (around 8m). We will also assume a perfect arc instead of a wave motion like it really does (initial horizontal launch and horizonal flight at the very end) to simplify our math a bit. And of course we are assuming our target is stationary and not moving. We are also only figuring for the centerpoint of the missile volley as the missiles can be in a spread around 10m from the top and bottom for the larger launchers (which complicates math even more because the top of the mass will have a slightly different speed from the bottom to keep the same velocity).

We are figuring right now for the max and minimum base ranges plus the ranges of every second at 160m/s (except for 160m as that is bellow out minimum range). Because of some of our assumptions, the math of the path our missile takes came out to an easy y= ((-x^2) / d) + x where d = distance in meters.

Lets figure the speed of our missile firing at max range. At 160m our missile is about 132m up with an average 'speed' of 207m/s across that distance. At 320m our missile is about 206m up with a 'speed' of about 177m/s. 161m/s at 480m (224m up) and 164m/s at 640m, 187m/s at 800m, and again at 207m/s at max range. Initial launch velocity is around 226m/s when you figure speed within smaller intervals to get better accuracy. Finding an equation for speed equates to about; -894.72x² + 7066.26y² + 805250.88x + 4503.54y = 362798347.5 (I am using a mathematics application which really helps for this and its settings are 2 place decimal, so the real equations are many decimal places long).

At minimum range, the initial and end speeds are the same as when firing at max range, 226m/s. In fact, using ratios to find the same percentage into the flight as above, the speeds are identical from point to point throughout (60m into 180m firing distance speed is 168m/s while 300m into 900m is also 168m/s). Even for all the +1 second flighttime increments, they all figure the same (aint math fun).

[Vellron2005]

Brain Cancer, on 02 October 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

It takes a high level of skill just to attempt to thread LRMs past the six zillion counters they currently have.

Considering we can burn out someone's torso in one heavy laser blast, it really doesn't seem like any reasonable buff to LRMs could "OP" them.

"OP" would be "everyone mounts AMS, LRM user doesn't even notice."

Ok then.. buff the hell out of LRMs.. I double dear you guys

Edited by Vellron2005, 02 October 2017 - 11:59 PM.

[Jingseng]

static flight time would simply not make sense... and besides which, would sort of presuppose both shooter and target are standing still.

But if we did add it and say computational loads be damned?
It wouldn't change much. We'd still see the majority of lrm users at near max range (in fact, they have greater incentive to under that scheme, or any other that essentially accelerate velocity over distance to target)... and most of them would still be sending their missiles right into terrain, or detonating in open air because max range, etc.

because the truth of it is, tunnel vision rules most players, and that lock on circle is compelling. Damn near no one checks range, or intervening terrain (1 in 25 actually do what they say and use TAG and maintain LOS), they just press R and click fire.

Sure you could change the weapon's parameters and characteristics... but what you really need to change first are the player behaviors that make it such a bad weapon in the first place.