85 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

I can't think of a good game with melee and a hitbox system like MWO. Sure, things like Titanfall have melee, but they don't have location based damage or destructible equipment.

Melee in most games = Did it hit? Yes? Do damage or instakill.

Melee here = Did it hit? Where did it hit? How much damage? Armour or structure? Do you need to roll for equipment damage? Did you crit? Was there an ammo or Gauss explosion?

[Edit] Double post [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 06 October 2017 - 12:09 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

And yet, we have dozens of weapons that can track where and how much damage as it is. Melee is merely a much shorter range "shot".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 05 October 2017 - 11:32 PM, said:

We're not getting Elementals in MWO, maybe in MWO2.

You won't ever get a combined arms PvP because that breaks some of the roles. Why would you ever need a light mech when aerospace exist?

[Lil Cthulhu]

12v12, one lance of light mechs, and two lances of power armor.

Sounds like a pretty good time to me.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Brain Cancer, on 06 October 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

And yet, we have dozens of weapons that can track where and how much damage as it is. Melee is merely a much shorter range "shot".

Then you still get into things like melee wind up, animation time, stagger, stunlock, hit reg, recovery time, cooldown. Does it deal self damage? Do relative velocities matter? Angle of impact? Weight differences? Does elevation get taken into account? What about momentum?

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 06 October 2017 - 01:04 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Then you still get into things like melee wind up, animation time, stagger, stunlock, hit reg, recovery time, cooldown. Does it deal self damage? Do relative velocities matter? Angle of impact? Weight differences? Does elevation get taken into account? What about momentum?

Apply a temporary speed restriction ala leg destruction for kicks. Use a "light arc" effect for kicks/punches. Global cooldown arm mounts for a punch. Hit reg is the same as any other weapon in the game. Recovery time goes with the temp speed restrict/global cooldown.

Punches and kicks don't deal self damage. Nor does velocity matter, angle of impact, or weight difference. Elevation matters only insofar as what part of the opponent your attack can reach. Momentum doesn't apply to either.

Most of what you're worried about applies to collisions/ramming, rather than actual physical attacks. Since Paul thinks collisions are bad, we'll never have charging put in, but at least we could punch/kick opponents.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brain Cancer, on 06 October 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

Apply a temporary speed restriction ala leg destruction for kicks. Use a "light arc" effect for kicks/punches. Global cooldown arm mounts for a punch. Hit reg is the same as any other weapon in the game. Recovery time goes with the temp speed restrict/global cooldown.

Punches and kicks don't deal self damage. Nor does velocity matter, angle of impact, or weight difference. Elevation matters only insofar as what part of the opponent your attack can reach. Momentum doesn't apply to either.

Most of what you're worried about applies to collisions/ramming, rather than actual physical attacks. Since Paul thinks collisions are bad, we'll never have charging put in, but at least we could punch/kick opponents.

That's a lot of animation work that could end up looking really horrible given the kind of movement that you are requesting. There is a reason they can look awesome in Battletech, because everything is standing still.

[FupDup]

Brain Cancer, on 06 October 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

Most of what you're worried about applies to collisions/ramming, rather than actual physical attacks. Since Paul thinks collisions are bad, we'll never have charging put in, but at least we could punch/kick opponents.

Uh...physical attacks by definition require a part of your mech to collide with an enemy mech. Otherwise it ain't physical.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 06 October 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

Uh...physical attacks by definition require a part of your mech to collide with an enemy mech. Otherwise it ain't physical.

I think he is talking about simulated physical attacks, where there is a hidden projectile (or hitscan based on some point in the animation) that determines the actual attack collision rather than the mech section itself which is how most games handle physical attacks.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 October 2017 - 01:35 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

I think he is talking about simulated physical attacks, where there is a hidden projectile (or hitscan based on some point in the animation) that determines the actual attack collision rather than the mech section itself which is how most games handle physical attacks.

Bingo. If it ain't a broken method, no need to reinvent the wheel.

[Vonbach]

ColonelMetus, on 04 October 2017 - 01:05 AM, said:

ive been playing for 5 years, i want to play as an elemental

Only if they give IS hand to hand combat.

[adamts01]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

You won't ever get a combined arms PvP because that breaks some of the roles. Why would you ever need a light mech when aerospace exist?

Same reason we still need tanks. Air can't sustain firepower due to a limited payload, they have limited time on site thanks to the amount of fuel it takes to keep airborne, and they're inability to fight right alongside infantry limits their effectiveness in many situations.

I'd be more worried about balancing tanks and aircraft, and making them still fun to play even though there are mechs available. I never did try Living Legends, maybe they answered all those questions.

[Bombast]

adamts01, on 06 October 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Same reason we still need tanks. Air can't sustain firepower due to a limited payload, they have limited time on site thanks to the amount of fuel it takes to keep airborne, and they're inability to fight right alongside infantry limits their effectiveness in many situations.

I hate to tell you this, but aerospace fighters pretty much universally use fusion engines (Functionally limitless fuel), and the same weapons as battlemechs (Equal payload endurance).

EDIT: I apologize, I was wrong. I struck out the incorrect part after checking the TechManual.

Edited by Bombast, 06 October 2017 - 04:34 PM.

[adamts01]

Bombast, on 06 October 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

I hate to tell you this, but aerospace fighters pretty much universally use fusion engines (Functionally limitless fuel), and the same weapons as battlemechs (Equal payload endurance).

EDIT: I apologize, I was wrong. I struck out the incorrect part after checking the TechManual.

If they took the same amount of guns with the same amount of cooling and ammo, then what was the point of a mech in lore? Just more armor? I don't know much at all about the story behind all of this, bu I hear guys pointing out how lore made about as much sense as PGI in many cases, this seems like one of those examples.

[Bombast]

adamts01, on 06 October 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

If they took the same amount of guns with the same amount of cooling and ammo, then what was the point of a mech in lore? Just more armor? I don't know much at all about the story behind all of this, bu I hear guys pointing out how lore made about as much sense as PGI in many cases, this seems like one of those examples.

Pfft. Whoever told you it makes sense in the lore is full of it. They do a lot to 'justify' it in-universe, but like all mecha franchise, it boils down to 'Because Giant Robots Punching Each Other Is Cool.'

The inuniverse justification (ie. Excuses) for Aerospace fighters not being kings of the battlefield are...

1. They use 'Special' fusion engines that, while not lostech, are still a pain to supply and fix
2. The nature of electronic warfare in the Inner Sphere (Everything actually engages in Electronic Warfare, ECM is just bigger and more pronounced) keeps air elements from targeting stuff from a mile up, so they have to come down to A-10 like ranges to fight
3. Their fragile. I can't remember the exact rules, but basically, while crits hurt mechs, they murder Aerospace fighters. Ground stability counts, basically

And probably some other stuff I forgot.

[50 50]

adamts01, on 06 October 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

I'd be more worried about balancing tanks and aircraft, and making them still fun to play even though there are mechs available. I never did try Living Legends, maybe they answered all those questions.

MW:LL uses a ticket type of system. The better you do in game, the more you earn and you spend that on the different mechs and vehicles, the cost of which varies which is how you can create a form of balance.
The best thing about that game though is the length of the battles and how you can capture different locations around the map to control the territory etc.

In regards to melee combat, charges and death form above might be easier approaches as they don't require new animations.
Might have a few questions and concerns about how it could be implemented though.

I certainly don't want to see Elementals blitzing about the battlefield at 100kph and having ridiculous quirks to make their weapons and survivability on par with other light mechs. While it was great to see them in the other MechWarrior titles, in some instances they seemed tacked on. Wasn't that keen on the way they were implemented in MW:LL either but each to their own.

I would like to see what the artists can come up with for them for MWO and being able to play as one against all the awesome mechs we have and run around on the maps. To me, that sounds like fun.
Dibs first call on an Urbanmech vs Elemental 12 v 12 battle on a city map.

Edited by 50 50, 06 October 2017 - 07:29 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Bombast, on 06 October 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

I hate to tell you this, but aerospace fighters pretty much universally use fusion engines (Functionally limitless fuel), and the same weapons as battlemechs (Equal payload endurance).

EDIT: I apologize, I was wrong. I struck out the incorrect part after checking the TechManual.

Aerospace fighters still need fuel, fusion engine or not. They can quite easily run out of thrust and crash. (Conventional aircraft frequently use internal combustion instead, but aerospace are universally fusion.)

[Bombast]

Brain Cancer, on 06 October 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

Aerospace fighters still need fuel, fusion engine or not. They can quite easily run out of thrust and crash. (Conventional aircraft frequently use internal combustion instead, but aerospace are universally fusion.)

Fusion engines in Battletech have such ridiculous fuel storage that, for the purposes of the game, they never need refueling, as no engagement can possibly last long enough to drain their 'tanks.'

Unless I'm forgetting an aerospace specific rule, in which case, I would be interested in being reminded.

[Zergling]

Bombast, on 06 October 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

Fusion engines in Battletech have such ridiculous fuel storage that, for the purposes of the game, they never need refueling, as no engagement can possibly last long enough to drain their 'tanks.'

Unless I'm forgetting an aerospace specific rule, in which case, I would be interested in being reminded.

Aerospace fusion engines are totally different to those on battlemechs or ground vehicles. They spend fuel to produce thrust, and in atmosphere they require thrust to stay airborne (if they aren't spending thrust, they lose altitude until they lawndart).

VTOLs with fusion engines effectively have unlimited range, as the fusion engine is just driving rotors (although some VTOLs like the Anhur are depicted without rotors, appearing to have some sort of jet engine instead... but they still follow the same rules as other VTOLs).

There are rules for Conventional fixed-wing aircraft to use propeller propulsion too, which if combined with a fusion engine would allow for unlimited range IIRC.

Edited by Zergling, 06 October 2017 - 11:00 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

So, one well placed airstrike and that's how many dead players in a match?