56 replies to this topic

[A Man In A Can]

LT. HARDCASE, on 04 October 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

Active Probes don't lower missile lock times either.

And I kinda wish they did.

[Shadowomega1]

LT. HARDCASE, on 04 October 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

*Internet sigh*

Active Probes don't lower missile lock times either.

Back when people were saying Artemis decreases lock on time for streaks I ran many test with it, also tests with LRMs. Streaks with Artemis on the mech same lock on time without Artemis, then equipped the Clan Active Probe and I saw a half second drop in lock on time against the testing range targets. Do note all tests for that were done under 200m and all on the same map, on the same target. Tourmaline Desert against the Atlas near the spawn.

[panzer1b]

There were no major nerfs that im aware of, but i do know that LRMs have always been very unreliable at both killing and even dealing damage (unless the target is huge like a king crab or dire, and you got artemis/tag).

The thing is, LRMs require 2 things, a sustained lock (someone is spotting them and isnt getting shot at or a narc), and a target that in physically unable to get into cover for whatever reason before you hit them a few times. Then, even if you find a target that satisfies both of those (which is pretty rare), you still need to shoot him for like 30 seconds before they actually die (LRMs spread so much, so yeah, you can get 1500 dmg done, but the actual killing power is so much less effective then even ballistics which also spread pretty bad outside of shorter ranges).

Im one of those people that runs almost every weapon at least occasionally, so yeah i do bring lurms here and there when im not in the mood for constant meta trash, and every time i use them, i get atrocious damage numbers and rarely even contribute towards the team's victory. Id love to see them buffed to the point of viability like ATMs are right now (yeah they spread, yeah they are still countered by many things, but unlike LRMs you can neuter/kill someone from 100% with 2-3 salvos in the HE range bracket). That said, aslong as T5 exists, LRMs cant be properly balanced since they will make it impossible to get into this game. Nothing wrong with being unskilled or new at the game, but its not exactly easy for brand new players to understand how LRMs work and how to counter em.

Until PGI decides to screw new players by buffing LRMs, i myself wont bother with them, and i encourage everyone else to do the same and not use them unless you are purely there to screw around and not actually win games.

[Asym]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 04 October 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

LRMs, as ever, is a weapon system dictated purely by positioning and the level of AMS present on either side, as well as the choice of map.

Barring the stars aligning and you getting Polar Highlands with a friendly NARCer on your team, you will find it incredibly difficult to post sizable damage against a team that knows what it is doing, and putting terrain between you and your targets. In a Night Gyr, which is about as maneuverable as an oiled turtle on ice, you'll find that out-maneuvering the enemy is next to impossible.

I'm still getting 600-700 damage games out of my piddly LRM30-NARC KFX with only a payload of ~1k missiles on maps that don't have massive amounts of covered areas (Crimson Strait) or lots of tall buildings in the way (River City, Mining Colony). Which is more or less the same as it has always been for the last year or so; NARC + LRM + repositioning ability = uninterrupted rain on the enemy = big damage regardless of crits. It doesn't matter how many LRM tubes you have if you can't get into position to make their cover irrelevant - which is why I'd say that the fact that you chose a Night Gyr as a LRM carrier is why you feel that LRMs are weaker.

They're not. Pick a fast missile medium with a NARC and go to town on the fatmechs that you tag. You'll find that they're still as good as ever against slow and large ballistic boats.

With respect, ah.............

I've deleted what I was going to respond with....
I know you're trying to be helpful and I appreciate that.... Thanks! I'm getting a little "thin skinned."
Yes, I have fast medium LRM platforms. But, even with them, even with spotters, TAGs and NARC's something is amiss.......the damage isn't providing damage escalation curves nor criticals that I was expereincing earlier and the overall damage results are noticabily lower per match.........

I have Night Gyrs because I bought them BEFORE PGI appropriated their combat power in May and beyond. It's what I own and have mostly retired.
I'm not a MWO expert, so I am asking the forum "if I missed something" game experts might have caught...

Thank you for the many responses..... Fox, I may be a potato and all that entails but, first and foremost, I do try to make a difference, and, if I see "something amiss" and don't understand it, I feel obligated to bring it up or ask..... For instance, 3 hours earlier, in yet another Night Gyr with 3 PPC's and 4 MpL's, I stood at 500 meters and had a damaged Mauler with his yellow damage back to me, standing on a slight rise and perfectly still, sniping......6 PPC shots: 3 then 3 and his damage did not change beyond orange:......aft aspect, port quartering away, 15 to 20% inclinated shot, noticable effects, ?? damage. Then, he turned and 1 medium laser hit him in the orange back and killed him......no, I did not miss..... Something is amiss my friend.

Edited by Asym, 04 October 2017 - 07:14 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Asym, on 04 October 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

Thank you for the many responses..... Fox, I may be a potato and all that entails but, first and foremost, I do try and make a difference and if I see "something amiss" and don't understand it, I feel obligated to bring it up or ask..... For instance, 3 hours earlier, in yet another Night Gyr with 3 PPC's and 4 MpL's, I stood at 600 meters and had a damaged Mauler with his yellow damage back to me, standing on a slight rise and perfectly still, sniping......6 PPC shots: 3 then 3 and his damage did not change beyond orange......aft aspect, port quartering away, 15 to 20% inclinated shot, noticable effects, minimal damage. In fact, I'm not sure he ever knew he was being shot......nor, I did not miss..... Something is amiss my friend.

If you're getting zero damage hits from PPCs, I'd suggest getting a traceroute done and log your packet losses and network jitter. I'm playing from Australia to NA, and almost exclusively use ERPPCs when not derping around - and every time, if I miss on a target, it's usually because it's my fault. If this is another case of supposed network issues, I'm really not seeing it, even on days when the AU international links are congested (e.g. weekends)

And as a secondary thing, LRMs are *not* affected by hitreg issues. At all. LRMs and Streaks are not affected by HSR in the traditional sense. Lag does NOT affect them. You might also want to consider that with the skill tree around, people do use Survival to reduce crit chances and raise their initial armour levels, which compounds the issue of why you're not seeing a substantial increase in damage by missile crits. To top it all off, LRMs tend to hit everything on the mech, so you're likely hitting more armor instead of vulnerable structure.

[Novakaine]

I'm of the opinion that there have been constant stealth nerf for them.
Consistent with lurm crying threads post on the forums.

[Rovertoo]

Im not positive, but werent LRMs 1000 meter range before? I came back and found they were all 900 metera and wondered if I missed something.

[Vellron2005]

I have not noticed any nerfs to LRMs.. they work nicely for me, as they always have..

Sure, people bring more AMS now, but a high tube count can deal with that.. (unlike ATMs)

Also, some mechs have become super tanky.. but that just means more damage to farm..

I have taken to using Artemis lately, it really does a good job of narrowing the spread.. other than that, I use LRMs as effectively as always, and get lots of kills and KMDDs..

The only problem I am having is I've gotten used to dumping some ridiculous rain on people, so anything lower than LRM50 is simply not fun for me anymore..

(Yesterday, me and DevilWoman teamed up in our Supernovas, dumping 140 LRM / salvo on people.. one of the enemy said we blot out the sun )

Edited by Vellron2005, 05 October 2017 - 12:13 AM.

[Ovion]

An Active Probe + a TCI is a good thing on a missile mech, due to increased sensor ranges, ecm counter and TIG times (lets you know what you're shooting at and what stat it's in).
It'll also help out your backup lasers.

As to the original question - yes and no.
AMS / LAMS were buffed a while ago (semi-recently) and since then its gone in waves of loads of AMS, making LRM's near unusable, so people stop using LRM's as much, which leads to people dropping AMS, which leads to a resurgence of LRMs as there's less AMS cover, which leads to more AMS being taken - repeat cycle.

[Paigan]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 04 October 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

LRMs, as ever, is a weapon system dictated purely by positioning and the level of AMS present on either side, as well as the choice of map.

Barring the stars aligning and you getting Polar Highlands with a friendly NARCer on your team, you will find it incredibly difficult to post sizable damage against a team that knows what it is doing, and putting terrain between you and your targets. In a Night Gyr, which is about as maneuverable as an oiled turtle on ice, you'll find that out-maneuvering the enemy is next to impossible.

I'm still getting 600-700 damage games out of my piddly LRM30-NARC KFX with only a payload of ~1k missiles on maps that don't have massive amounts of covered areas (Crimson Strait) or lots of tall buildings in the way (River City, Mining Colony). Which is more or less the same as it has always been for the last year or so; NARC + LRM + repositioning ability = uninterrupted rain on the enemy = big damage regardless of crits. It doesn't matter how many LRM tubes you have if you can't get into position to make their cover irrelevant - which is why I'd say that the fact that you chose a Night Gyr as a LRM carrier is why you feel that LRMs are weaker.

They're not. Pick a fast missile medium with a NARC and go to town on the fatmechs that you tag. You'll find that they're still as good as ever against slow and large ballistic boats.

For once a reasonable, differentiated statement on LRMs.
Have a like!

[adamts01]

Asym, on 04 October 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

.......the damage isn't providing damage escalation curves nor criticals that I was expereincing earlier and the overall damage results are noticabily lower per match.........

I'm sure a lot more people are getting on board with the crit reduction option thanks to LMGs being so potent, that might explain the loss of damage from good hits.

Ovion, on 05 October 2017 - 12:36 AM, said:

An Active Probe + a TCI is a good thing on a missile mech, due to increased sensor ranges, ecm counter and TIG times (lets you know what you're shooting at and what stat it's in).
It'll also help out your backup lasers.

Anything farther than your stock sensors will reach is probably a bad target for LRMs anyway. Active Probe and TC1 are absolutely helpful, but I think they benefit LRMs the least in that you can't use the target data to pick out a location to hit anyway. If it's alive and you have a shot with LRMs, you should be taking it regardless of what the paper doll says.

[Appogee]

Asym, on 04 October 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

I dusted off a Night Gyr LRM-45 ...

I stopped reading at this point.

I cannot help anyone who believes that putting 45LRMs on that chassis is, was, or will ever be, a good idea, or respectful/responsible to the other 11 people forced to drop with them in a team.

Edited by Appogee, 05 October 2017 - 01:00 AM.

[Ovion]

adamts01, on 05 October 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:

Anything farther than your stock sensors will reach is probably a bad target for LRMs anyway. Active Probe and TC1 are absolutely helpful, but I think they benefit LRMs the least in that you can't use the target data to pick out a location to hit anyway. If it's alive and you have a shot with LRMs, you should be taking it regardless of what the paper doll says.

More range gives you more options, lets you pick targets and be locking as you're moving in.

Increased Sensor Range also helps with BAP (unless they changed that) giving you a few extra meters of negation range.

You say regardless of paper doll, but I'll cycle through a few options and see what's juiciest, or if it has AMS or not, dictating whether I chain or volley the missiles.
Targetting data is *always* useful.
Being I nomrally get 3-5+ kills and 600-1300 damage with my missile boats, I must be doing something right

Edited by Ovion, 05 October 2017 - 01:07 AM.

[adamts01]

Ovion, on 05 October 2017 - 01:06 AM, said:

You say regardless of paper doll, but I'll cycle through a few options and see what's juiciest, or if it has AMS or not, dictating whether I chain or volley the missiles.
Targetting data is *always* useful.

I'm still thinking of the competition this game used to have. I guess with the flood gates wide open there's plenty of time to pick and choose which potato to LRM at will, even after checking all their loadouts. Sigh, this game really is dead.

[Mcgral18]

Shadowomega1, on 04 October 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

Back when people were saying Artemis decreases lock on time for streaks I ran many test with it, also tests with LRMs. Streaks with Artemis on the mech same lock on time without Artemis, then equipped the Clan Active Probe and I saw a half second drop in lock on time against the testing range targets. Do note all tests for that were done under 200m and all on the same map, on the same target. Tourmaline Desert against the Atlas near the spawn.

You sure you're talking Missile lock, and not Paper Doll Info?

Because Artemis affects the former, and BAP the later

Stack TAG and Artemis, and you get 25% duration locks. BAP just lets you shoot through ECM (a single ECM, within BAP range)


It's possible they've fixed the Artemis bug with Streaks, but it should still be valid with LRMs (as they pay the ton)

[Ovion]

adamts01, on 05 October 2017 - 01:18 AM, said:

I'm still thinking of the competition this game used to have. I guess with the flood gates wide open there's plenty of time to pick and choose which potato to LRM at will, even after checking all their loadouts. Sigh, this game really is dead.

Increased TIG means you can flick options quickly.
And if you're suggesting you should be firing from 1100M, rather than prioritizing targets, and that cycling targets as you move in to a proper engagement range is bad play, then hey - you do you.

[adamts01]

Ovion, on 05 October 2017 - 01:25 AM, said:

Increased TIG means you can flick options quickly.
And if you're suggesting you should be firing from 1100M, rather than prioritizing targets, and that cycling targets as you move in to a proper engagement range is bad play, then hey - you do you.

You're the one talking about longer sensor range benefiting LRMs, not sure why you're trying to pin long range LRMing on me. Maybe players these days are that much worse than a year ago, but it used to be the case that good LRM targets were very few and far between, and forget about taking time to pick a juicy target, you'd eat a dual gauss before you'd even have time to get your missiles off. Promoting them as you are, it's more of a testament to how bad current players are, not how decent the weapon is.

[Ovion]

adamts01, on 05 October 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

You're the one talking about longer sensor range benefiting LRMs, not sure why you're trying to pin long range LRMing on me. Maybe players these days are that much worse than a year ago, but it used to be the case that good LRM targets were very few and far between, and forget about taking time to pick a juicy target, you'd eat a dual gauss before you'd even have time to get your missiles off. Promoting them as you are, it's more of a testament to how bad current players are, not how decent the weapon is.

Because I clearly stated you cycle as you're moving in.

It's not my fault you didn't read what I said.

You're also talking like you don't actually play atm, which doesn't help your case so much either.

[adamts01]

Ovion, on 05 October 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

Because I clearly stated you cycle as you're moving in.

It's not my fault you didn't read what I said.

You're also talking like you don't actually play atm, which doesn't help your case so much either.

I did take a year off, but just came back to try stuff out and LRMs are as situational as ever. And in the situations they do work in, direct fire is almost universally a better option. I'm not saying you're a scrub, but if your opponents are letting you cycle through their loadouts as you approach then you're fighting scrubs, and there's no reason to use that as an example of why the weapon is good, as any weapon would mop the floor with them.

[Steve Pryde]

Lots of mechs (specially IS mechs) have way more armor now cause of armor quirks combined with skill tree nodes. AMS got buffed too and 100% radar derp is now possible too.

Just a hint, don't use LRMs. They are worthless, specially in higher tiers.