19 replies to this topic

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Hello: I have been playing since February and made it to Tier 3, and still have a great deal to learn. One lingering question I have is whether most people routinely max out their torso armor, as I do. I also tend to max out my arm armor if I have any weps in the arms, but not always if shaving a bit gets me some significant additional damage potential. I do not tend to max out leg armor except on a light since it seems absurdly high for heavies and assaults, and few people think to shoot at legs except on a light.
I have noticed though that when I spectate after dying, some mechs have many more weapons than I am able to carry on any of my mechs (and I have a lot of them of all size classes). So, I assume, these players are significantly shaving torso armor in order to load up on more weapons. I am wondering if people think that is an effective strategy? Since my biggest problem in the game is staying alive, I am very reluctant to do this -- but perhaps I would not die much sooner without the armor and the extra firepower might get me more kills, hopefully before they kill me.
Thanks for your thoughts.

[undeadasharak]

maxing out torso armor is a must if you want to shave armor do it from legs head or on some mechs the arms the poeple you see with lots of weapons are proabablly useing a light engine or a extra light engine

im sure some of our regular helpfull people will get to you sooner then later to explain in more depth (when i try to explain i end up confusing both the person im explaining things to and myself lol)

Edited by undeadasharak, 04 October 2017 - 04:16 PM.

[Burning2nd]

i max out all armor and then work from there..

if you do it right you can come up with the point Nine builds..

where the armor is maxed your carriing all that you can.. and you are unable to add anything else...

those the .9 builds

[Void Angel]

Yes. Always max torso armor.

[jss78]

I always max out torso armour -- except on rare troll builds that are ridiculously overgunned.

Arms vary between max armour and virtually no armour -- depends on whether they have guns in them, and if their geometry makes them good shields. On some 'mechs the arms are big and effectively shield the torso when torso twisting, so it's worthwhile to put in a lot of armour even when the arms are "empty".

I only put max leg armour on "fast" 'mechs, because the faster you go, the more likely people are to leg you. Otherwise I tend to look at the max armour for arms as a rule of thumb on what's a bare minimum for legs. I rarely get legged.

Head I typically have somewhere between 10-16 points. It's been a long time since I last got headshot.

Edited by jss78, 04 October 2017 - 04:50 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Serpentine Shel Serpentine, on 04 October 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Hello: I have been playing since February and made it to Tier 3, and still have a great deal to learn. One lingering question I have is whether most people routinely max out their torso armor, as I do. I also tend to max out my arm armor if I have any weps in the arms, but not always if shaving a bit gets me some significant additional damage potential. I do not tend to max out leg armor except on a light since it seems absurdly high for heavies and assaults, and few people think to shoot at legs except on a light.
I have noticed though that when I spectate after dying, some mechs have many more weapons than I am able to carry on any of my mechs (and I have a lot of them of all size classes). So, I assume, these players are significantly shaving torso armor in order to load up on more weapons. I am wondering if people think that is an effective strategy? Since my biggest problem in the game is staying alive, I am very reluctant to do this -- but perhaps I would not die much sooner without the armor and the extra firepower might get me more kills, hopefully before they kill me.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Maxed torso armour is absolutely essential, unless you run builds that rarely see facetime with the enemy (I used to run a Jager that shaved some torso armour to carry more DAKKA, but that was the only one). If you lose a torso, you lose the arm attached also, and significant portions of your firepower - or your life, if you're running a 'Sphere XL.

Even with a clan XL or an LFE, you're still pretty much screwed after torso loss. You may have survived, but your ability to contribute to the fight falls off dramatically.

Torso armour #1, all other considerations #2 or lower. Extra firepower is useless if you aren't alive to use it.

Most players run a step further and strip rear armour to frontload as much protection as they can. I used to scoff at it, but after tracking my match scores it really seems to work. Every little bit counts.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Well that's kinda curious question, yes max torso armor.

[jss78]

Kiiyor, on 04 October 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Most players run a step further and strip rear armour to frontload as much protection as they can. I used to scoff at it, but after tracking my match scores it really seems to work. Every little bit counts.

I was also long dubious about running light rear torso armour. I'm a suspenders-and-a-belt personality, and figured better play it safe, right?

But when I start to think about it, I almost always die through the front. Whether I run 20 or 10 rear armour won't save me in the case where a 'mech sneaks behind me. These are not Stingers firing a single ML -- they'll burn through your rear armour with their first alpha no matter what. But in 90+% cases you die through the front, and in that vast majority of games every little bit of armour in front counts.

If I try to think rationally about it, I'm not sure it's sensible to run ANY rear armour. I still run about 8 points out of habit though, except on long range 'mechs like Jagers where I go to about 4.

[Leone]

For mech that run alotta weaponry, they're usually running alotta short range weaponry. Small or medium lasers, srms, machineguns, etc. Light stuff that you can pack your mech with. Take the Murder Machine for example. One of the few mechs able to hit the games 16 weapon hard limit, (If you try it on a nova variant with a CT ams, you won't be able to fit the ams)

This mech is a vicious little knife fighter cuz it trades out range for more weaponry and faster firing rates due to the lighter nature of short range weaponry. It's why I brawl. With Battlemechs, you can also down grade the engine to make room, but that doesn't work as well since slower mechs get shot more. Still, I've a few mediums slower'n some of my assaults, because sometimes, I just want bigger guns, and survivabilty be damned.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 04 October 2017 - 09:10 PM.

[Tesunie]

Serpentine Shel Serpentine, on 04 October 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

I have noticed though that when I spectate after dying, some mechs have many more weapons than I am able to carry on any of my mechs (and I have a lot of them of all size classes). So, I assume, these players are significantly shaving torso armor in order to load up on more weapons. I am wondering if people think that is an effective strategy? Since my biggest problem in the game is staying alive, I am very reluctant to do this -- but perhaps I would not die much sooner without the armor and the extra firepower might get me more kills, hopefully before they kill me.
Thanks for your thoughts.

I can't think of a single reason to skimp on CT armor. Maybe you could on a useless side torso with a useless arm (probably an extremely rare situation, and still not practical) if the mech is packing a standard engine. For the most part, you should be maxing out your armor, with maybe an arm or two without anything in it and a tiny bit off the legs if you are really strapped for tonnage. Even then, don't deprive yourself of armor. It's what keeps you going when things get tense.

Most people probably get more weapons in one of several ways.
One way is that they probably are taking a not so standard engine. Maybe a new Light Fusion Engine (LFE) or an Extra Light Engine (XL) if they are Innersphere. Most mechs now-a-days probably should run a LFE, with XLs only as desired or absolutely needed and Standard engines only for some select mechs that have CT or head component weapons that wish to "be good till the last drop". Anything larger than a medium mech starts to become seriously risky for an XL, and depends upon the build and the mech's hit boxes more than anything else. (This is information for IS tech. Clan tech, run XL's all day, every day.)
Another possibility is that those mechs have utilized Endo Steel frames, and/or Ferro-fibrous (FF) armor or even Light Ferro-Fibrous (LFF) armor. Endo should be one of your first considerations for weight savings. Besides assaults and the occational other class of mech, most every mech probably should be upgraded to this. FF and LFF is a "if you have the crits and can utilize it, take it". Most every light and many Medium mechs have FF, and some mediums and heavies might have LFF. It's rare that an Assault mech has the spare crit slots, and tend to run out of crits compared to weight... (Once again, this is for IS technology. Clans are often less likely to be able to control the type of armor/structure they have, but when they do, mostly the same rules as for IS mentioned here.)
And, as someone else mentioned already, there is also the different types and classes of weapons. Lighter weapons are easier to pack more into a mech (Hard Point depending), where as heavier weapons often times come in fewer bundles. So a mech might be able to pack 12 MLs (be aware of ghost heat!), where as another loadout of the same chassis may end up being customized to have 3 (ER)LLs and/or have additional 4 SLs or something. (FYI: This is for all tech types.)


By no means is it typically a smart concept to drop your torso front armor, or run your torso short on armor at any time. I mean, I'm sure someone has done it, and someone has had successful builds that do it... but 99 out of 100 cases, it's typically just not a good idea...


(I make this post with a hopeful consideration that people understand the difference between IS tech and Clan tech, as well as the difference between a standard Battlemech and an Omnimech...)

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Let's look at it this way:

Q1. Are you running an IS XL? If you answered yes, max out your torso armor. Period. If you are running an IS LFE, IS STD, or CXL, the answer becomes slightly more complicated.

Q2. If you are running arm weapons, is it on that side torso? If yes, max out your torso armor. A torso is, in most cases, a bigger target than your arm, and the arm usually has more armor packed into a smaller space (as it doesn't have to split between front/rear torsi). Losing your torso will also destroy the arm on that side, which means that all the armor you packed into that arm would be useless if the ST gets shot off first.

Q3. Are you running a hot, asymmetric build? If your weapons are all right-hand side of the mech, you might be able to get away with shaving armor off the side torso to pack in a couple more DHS. This is especially true for mechs that have STD engines, because they don't even get a heat penalty for losing a side torso.

Q4. Are you running an indirect fire or long-range build? Armor matters less if you have mostly long-range weapons - but this obviously comes with the caveat that you need to be always aware of what is happening all around you. Shaving armor and carelessly not watching what is happening is a good way to get backstabbed by fast light mechs. And with lower armor, you'd be an even more attractive target for them than usual.

Whatever the case, NEVER drop front torso armor. EVER. If you are aware of what is happening, and your team is scouting properly and screening away fast mechs, you shouldn't normally be shot at from behind. Front toward enemy.

[Audacious Aubergine]

Yes, maxing out front armour on centre and side torsos is the first thing I do for any new mech. My personal preference is also to max out armour on any arms with weapons on them

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Tesunie, on 04 October 2017 - 09:41 PM, said:

I can't think of a single reason to skimp on CT armor. Maybe you could on a useless side torso with a useless arm (probably an extremely rare situation, and still not practical) if the mech is packing a standard engine.

I know few. Mist Lynx with 2 ERL and ECM. It can carry only two tons of armor and full torso armor alone would weight it, and you want to have some in legs and arm/s as well.

Or Dire with 4 gauss, as it's tonnage limited by far, to carry enough ammo, so you are better off taking some armor off to carry more ammo.

But loadouts like these are pretty rare and not recommended.

[aGentleWarrior]

I max torso armor and max legs on lights.

On mediums i try to heave at least 40 on legs, 45 on heavy 50 on assaults (approximately).

Arms depend, i do not like brawling, prefer med to long range fights and on these builds i prefer to have my main weapons in torsos and again spare armor on arms....

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Thanks for all the great advice. Obviously everyone agrees that maxing out torso armor is best 99.9% of the time, and that is what I have been doing and will keep it up. I also use Endo on all builds and FF if crits allow, so perhaps it is just the sort of weapons I choose that makes it appear that other folks have more weapons that I do. Typically I will not risk ghost heat, for example, so I tend to mix-match weapon types, which has some disadvantages and is less common than nearly single-purpose boating. This has all been very helpful -- this game has a terrific community!

[Fox the Apprentice]

Serpentine Shel Serpentine, on 05 October 2017 - 05:05 AM, said:

[...]
this game has a terrific community!

Careful where you go on the forums if you want to keep this opinion

[Tesunie]

Teer Kerensky, on 05 October 2017 - 01:25 AM, said:

I know few. Mist Lynx with 2 ERL and ECM. It can carry only two tons of armor and full torso armor alone would weight it, and you want to have some in legs and arm/s as well.

Or Dire with 4 gauss, as it's tonnage limited by far, to carry enough ammo, so you are better off taking some armor off to carry more ammo.

But loadouts like these are pretty rare and not recommended.

There is a reason I slid the "extremely rare situation" line in there.
But considering you quoted that section specifically, I think you already understood that.

Like, even your examples (and I don't normally do this too much), the Mist Lynx with two ERLLs and ECM. Why do that on a Mist Lynx (besides to show that it can be done) when an Arctic Cheetah can do it more effectively with more armor and high mounted torso energy (and ECM) slots. (And as I say this, I wouldn't fault anyone who does use a Mist Lynx in that manner. It's their choice and their build.)
Or that quad Gauss Direwolf. For the most part, you can't even shoot quad Gauss currently at the same time. Two Gauss is all that can be currently fired, so you are talking about charging and shooting two at a time. They can be quickly shot in sequence, which can be deadly, but once again there are probably better builds for such a design. Kodiak comes to mind here, as it's not an Omni-mech, and thus can adjust Endo, FF and it's engine size and possibly any number of Heat Sinks that may otherwise be locked to the Direwolf. For such a build, you probably don't even need DHS as well. (Same notation as above.)

So, yes. As you put it, "But loadouts like these are pretty rare and not recommended".

Fox the Apprentice, on 05 October 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

Careful where you go on the forums if you want to keep this opinion

Be careful of what you ask on these forums too... Don't even mention LRMs at all if you want to stay away from the nastier side of the forums... Even in the New Player Help section...

[Koniving]

Yes. Side note.

People make extra tonnage by shaving minor amounts of armor from extremities, using endo steel structure, low heatsink or ammo counts to fit more or bulkier weapons. XL engines help quite a bit. I am certain you know some have bigger techs with more tonnage. Cutting the engine size provides more tonnage, too.

Sometimes they go with many lighter weapons instead of just a few heavy ones.

Some builds require reduced armor. However they shave from everywhere else after reducing engine, heatsink, ammo etc. For example my lrm 90 roflpult uses a 200 engine and 116 armor... But almost all of it is on the torso. Another build opts to sacrifice speed instead of armor to fit lots of lrms. My partner sacrificed everything...

https://youtu.be/oUInQpsjtrw

Glass canons or joke builds, these are often called.

[SnagaDance]

Serpentine Shel Serpentine, on 05 October 2017 - 05:05 AM, said:

... so perhaps it is just the sort of weapons I choose that makes it appear that other folks have more weapons that I do. Typically I will not risk ghost heat, ...

Be aware that you can get around ghost heat by only firing the maximum amount of such a ghost heat family weapon-type and firing the rest 0.5 seconds later. A good example is the often seen 12 ERSL or 12 SPL Nova with 6 mounted in each arm (and the GH limit also being 6). Firing all of them at once will insta-shut down the mech, but you can fire one arm after the other just fine and this is something you'll often see in-game.
Another example is any IS dual AC-20 build. Firing 2 of them generates ghost heat, so you can just fire them one after the other. But it can often be advantageous that you want to place 40 points of damage in the same spot guaranteed (to kill an opponent for instance) so sometimes you'll just take that extra heat for the power it brings you.

Being aware of Ghost Heat is important, being able to get around it or work with it is even more important.

[Kroete]

For torso and sidetorsos i use 90% front, 10% back.
arms, if i use them full, if not only a few points,
legs depend on mech, with big armor, i reduce it sometimes by 10-20%,
head only if i need a few kilos to get another ton or half together.

And dont be to stingy with leg armor,
if an enemy has lots of weapons or big weapons, i mostly swipe their legs at first to see if they have low leg armor.
Its faster to leg a mech if he has low leg armor but big torsoarmor and is twisting.

Edited by Kroete, 06 October 2017 - 03:51 AM.