50 replies to this topic

[LT. HARDCASE]

If PGI brings in IS Omnis, they pretty much need to skip the entire first generation.

[FupDup]

LT. HARDCASE, on 06 October 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

If PGI brings in IS Omnis, they pretty much need to skip the entire first generation.

The Raptor is serviceable, and was canonically the first IS Omni to be produced.

[The Mysterious Fox]

MWO is past 4 years at this point, its high time to throw lore into the wind and focus on fun and implement whatever they want in service of that goal

Edited by The Mysterious Fox, 06 October 2017 - 08:37 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 06 October 2017 - 03:58 PM, said:

Congrats you figured out why IS mechs are superior to all but a handful of clan omnis.

[Khobai]

Quote

MWO is past 4 years at this point, its high time to throw lore into the wind and focus on fun and implement whatever they want in service of that goal

balance never shouldve taken a backseat to lore anyway

IS omnis could easily be made to work if they abandoned the lore aspects of the game

like omnis having locked equipment... is that really necessary to balance omnis? omnis would still have the downside of losing all their quirks if you change an omnipod, so they would still be inferior to perfect battlemechs.

Edited by Khobai, 07 October 2017 - 02:38 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Armored Yokai, on 06 October 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Owens: a good light mech that can watch from afar while giving important info (this thing's C3 should be replaced with AMS or extra armor) all the while having good extra omnipods from those other variants
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Strider: Good but the variant's omnipods grant more tech and firepower
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Avatar: a Warhammer with more Options
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Sunder: the 90 ton power house that can choke slam a Noobcat/Noob Gyr/noobbringer/Super Noob/Nooba/Maranoob IIC with it's devastating array of close combat weaponry

Owens: Raptor. First IS OmniMech, much better constructed, many more build options and still Draconis Combine made. *BONUS* related to the Raptor II.

Strider: Men Shen. Based on the Raven, decent sized engine, MASC, ECM variants. Just unlock that BAP (and do the same for the MLX CAP). Has a lore friendly Hero 'mech, but it's nothing special.

Avatar: Sure, alternatively the Black Hawk-KU. A heavier IS Nova, complete with 12E hardpoints. An unavailable variant has ECM. Lore friendly Hero uses MixTech, but that can be hand waived, like the Grinner.

Sunder: Sure, alternatively the Templar. 5 tons lighter, same movement speed, has ECM variants. Has 2 lore friendly Hero 'mechs. Has amazing pauldrons!

WRT MixTech, I'm all for it, but I doubt PGI's ability to then balance the tech across factions, so let's not just yet.

Bombast, on 06 October 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

I did a poll on this before. The results were the Raptor, the Men Shen, the Black Hawk-KU, and the Sunder. Seems like a good starting place to me.

I would be fine with the Avatar & Templar instead of the Black Hawk-KU & Sunder, though my opinion on the 4 waxes and wanes.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 07 October 2017 - 02:36 AM, said:

like omnis having locked equipment... is that really necessary to balance omnis? omnis would still have the downside of losing all their quirks if you change an omnipod, so they would still be inferior to perfect battlemechs.

I'm still fine with JJs and MASC being locked, but since we have several OmniMechs that have swappable pods with or without JJs, I think it's time every other OmniMech got a new variant to "plug the gap".

So each OmniMech that has locked JJs, like the Viper, gets a new variant without locked JJs in the leg and torso pods.
Likewise each OmniMech without JJs, like the Hellbringer, gets a new variant with locked JJs, either in the side torso or the centre torso & legs.

Things like the MLX CAP can go away though, they already removed the Adder's Flamer, time for a little more.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm still fine with JJs and MASC being locked,

id be okay with locked equipment if the omnimech set bonuses were 6/8 instead of 8/8

and if omnimechs had omnihardpoints

but right now omnimechs are just inferior to perfect battemechs, locked equipment is a huge downside.

and for IS omnimechs to work I think youd have to get rid of locked equipment entirely for omnimechs.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 07 October 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:

but right now omnimechs are just inferior to perfect battemechs

Just as imperfect BattleMechs are inferior to perfect OmniMechs

[Bombast]

Khobai, on 07 October 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:

but right now omnimechs are just inferior to perfect battemechs, locked equipment is a huge downside.

Well, yah, but...

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 October 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

Just as imperfect BattleMechs are inferior to perfect OmniMechs

It's almost like the operative word there is 'perfect.'

[Khobai]

Quote

Just as imperfect BattleMechs are inferior to perfect OmniMechs

were talking specifically about omnimechs though. omnimechs need some other advantage(s) so theyre not just inferior to perfect battlemechs. obviously imperfect battlemechs need some help too.

ideally all mechs should be equal and there should be no imperfect mechs, that includes both battlemechs and omnimechs.

again id like to see omnihardpoints added to omnimechs. give each omnimech 1-2 omnihardpoints in their side torsos or arms that can mount any weapon type. thats basically how omnimech weapon swapping is supposed to work anyway, they dont have hardwired hardpoints like battlemechs.

Edited by Khobai, 07 October 2017 - 04:44 AM.

[WildeKarde]

Omnimechs were never a pick and mix for pods. It was a whole change of config with all pods and equipment .

Is omnimechs will struggle to compete due to worse tech and fixed equipment. And without looking I'm not sure there is any of them that has a good enough mix of pods to make an OP mechs

Mixing tech doesn't solve any issues as everyone will gravitate towards the mechs with best hardpoints and use optimal equipment. You then make the majority of mechs redundant.

New mechs packs then need to always improve on current mechs to sell. That's when P2W starts getting thrown as mechs for cash will be better than ingame

[TheArisen]

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 October 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

Owens: Raptor. First IS OmniMech, much better constructed, many more build options and still Draconis Combine made. *BONUS* related to the Raptor II.

Strider: Men Shen. Based on the Raven, decent sized engine, MASC, ECM variants. Just unlock that BAP (and do the same for the MLX CAP). Has a lore friendly Hero 'mech, but it's nothing special.

Avatar: Sure, alternatively the Black Hawk-KU. A heavier IS Nova, complete with 12E hardpoints. An unavailable variant has ECM. Lore friendly Hero uses MixTech, but that can be hand waived, like the Grinner.

Sunder: Sure, alternatively the Templar. 5 tons lighter, same movement speed, has ECM variants. Has 2 lore friendly Hero 'mechs. Has amazing pauldrons!

WRT MixTech, I'm all for it, but I doubt PGI's ability to then balance the tech across factions, so let's not just yet.


I would be fine with the Avatar & Templar instead of the Black Hawk-KU & Sunder, though my opinion on the 4 waxes and wanes.

The Raptor and Men Shen are pretty much the only mechs in their weight brackets that would be good or even great. The Men Shen in particular is arguably the best possible IS omni. Unlock the BAP and It has everything you could want with it's only real downside being what some might say is it's overengined (330XL in a 55t mech) in some configs I could see it working like a 55t IS Shadowcat. Plus without he missile box thing on top of it it's frontal profile is amazing with high mounts. So saying it's nothing special when it's probably the best possible IS omni is kinda crazy.

Also, the Avatar would be a terrible mech unless uber quirked. 65kph 70 tonner with bad hitboxes... The BHawk Ku is the only worthwhile IS heavy omni as the only other option not named here is the Perseus which is literally an omni Orion with a locked 300xl.

Assaults are the only ones with actual options. The Sunder, Templar and Hauptmann would be fairly decent to pretty good.

[Jay Leon Hart]

TheArisen, on 07 October 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

So saying it's nothing special when it's probably the best possible IS omni is kinda crazy.

That part is specifically about the lore friendly Hero 'mech.

[TheArisen]

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 October 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

That part is specifically about the lore friendly Hero 'mech.

Hahaha oh man well I'm a fool

[SeventhSL]

I think you'd be very disappointed with IS Omni Mechs.

Clan Omni Mechs work on MWO because Clan tech is lighter and takes fewer slots which mitigates all the locked options. Buy an IS mech from the store and then try to build it without being able to change engines, endo, ferro, heat sinks, jump jets, etc. Yep you could juggle your hard points but without light weight, low slot weapons how usfull is that?

For IS Omni Mechs to work they would have to have far more relaxed rules than Clan Omni Mechs.

[Trissila]

Khobai, on 06 October 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

not to mention PGI has killed the only advantage omnimechs had which was swapping omnipods.

they need to lax up the omnipod set bonus requirements from 8/8 to 6/8 so you can at least swap out two omnipods and still get the full set bonus.

otherwise it defeats the whole point of omnimechs which is to swap omnipods.

There are many cases where swapping pods is worth more than the set-of-8 quirks.

The quirks only exist to make stock/lore loadouts more attractive over mix-and-match-by-default.

And IS 'mechs aren't exactly overperforming relative to clan omnis even without set-of-8.

[Andi Nagasia]

LT. HARDCASE, on 06 October 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

If PGI brings in IS Omnis, they pretty much need to skip the entire first generation.

o come on their not that bad,
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ok they can work, but dont expect them to be meta,
(i think Quirks can potentially save them)

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I don't give a tossed cow patty salad about FP, so I can't say I have a strong opinion about mixtech decks.

IS omnis, though, I really want to see. Most of them do admittedly suck eggs because of locked SHS or locked ISXL in heavies and assaults... but the Raptor has been close to the top of my wish list for a long time now, and at least on paper it looks like it'd be pretty decent in MWO (especially now that we have ERML, ERSL, rocket launchers, and MGs that are no longer awful). There's no reason it shouldn't happen; Clans got their battlemechs, so it's time to give the IS their omnis. There's nothing whatsoever preventing PGI from only adding the ones that aren't irredeemably terrible.

I think the only two 'Mechs I want more than the Raptor right now are the Toro and the Argus- neither one an omni, but hands down the two sexiest 'Mechs ever to stomp across a battlefield.

[Spheroid]

People should not be afraid to use SHS. We already have the increased heat disappation quirk for sub 250 engine mechs. You just tweak that value so that an I.S. omni using Clan energy weapons arrive at the same point more or less as the weight saved by using lighter energy is invested into additional external heatsinks.

Or if using I.S. only weapons you give heat reductions to specific weapon classes and make the overall setup slightly worse but allowing more flexability in crit placement for machine guns and rocket launchers, etc.

Its really not a show stopper in my opinion. I have always wanted the Strider added. It looks so mean and badass visually.

Edited by Spheroid, 07 October 2017 - 10:20 AM.