160 replies to this topic

[SFC174]

Cara Carcass, on 10 October 2017 - 06:20 AM, said:

Yeah damage reflection is good untill one troll figures out he can hurt you while dancing between you and the enemy.....

Too much effort for trolls. Plus, the enemy would be shooting them as well, they'd be dead quick, probably before you had to worry much about damage reflection. Reflection works well in other multiplayer shootem ups which I shall not name here, especially when part of a multi-level anti-troll strategy such as "color change = fair game for anyone" identification, etc.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

James Argent, on 10 October 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Nobody ever said there were hundreds of people doing this, there's only two that do it. But it's confirmed that they have multiple accounts...by their own words, hundreds of them...and because of that, banning them on one account each after they TK on it doesn't work.

No matter how many anecdotes you are able to compile on a completely unscientific 'everybody I know' survey, you will never get the complete picture...which for several good reasons, PGI will never share. In any case, if you're right and we're all wasting our time, why do you care so much to try to dissuade us from discussing it? Isn't new player protection a worthy enough goal to implement preventative measures?

So its practially 2 people that are sooooo hard to come by that a complet game changeing emchanism ahs to be implemented?

AJBennett, on 10 October 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

Yes, I did read your posts and its clear that you missed the threads on the forums about the TKers rampage OR you would have known it was not "hundreds doing it"..."isolated" or "one bad evening" it was weeks...though it seems to have dropped off recently...very recently to the levels you're describing in your post. The "now closed" thread titled "Tier 5 Tk Trolls" clearly refutes your belief that it was just happening to 3 or 4 isolated people just crying "TKer". Its clear you didn't talk to me or members of my Unit (among other fairly well known Units and players in MWO), They and I ran into them several times a night in drops over the course of a few weeks (as did the other 22-23 players in the matches despite side) as well as several Twich-casters and youtubers that presented videos of the TKers in action and PGI officially responding that they are "...watching accounts..." (whatever that means)...so its not hard to imagine that your "asking" wasn't as broad, in-depth, or far-reaching as you believe it was. I see no point in re-doing what others have already as far as exposing the issue as wide spread and a problem that needs to be dealt with. I challenge YOU to produce this ethereal statistical analysis you mention that apparently flies in the face of reality...whatever. *shrug*

...videos like this...

https://youtu.be/XXFX6gaxWgc

https://youtu.be/KUwpI4XNOBc

No you did not. The ansewer you gave to my posts clearly displayed that. And yes i missed those 2 posts. However the amount of people that do those teamkills is sufficiently small tob e erased by hand.... does not look like it needs a whole game change.

SFC174, on 10 October 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Too much effort for trolls. Plus, the enemy would be shooting them as well, they'd be dead quick, probably before you had to worry much about damage reflection. Reflection works well in other multiplayer shootem ups which I shall not name here, especially when part of a multi-level anti-troll strategy such as "color change = fair game for anyone" identification, etc.

Actually that is what happened a few times in tier 1.

Edited by Cara Carcass, 10 October 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[James Argent]

That's the thing...you can't punish them for the TK because you can only punish the account, not the player. If a single account has no meaning to them because they have a crapload of them, punishment has ZERO effect on them.

Two morons with an unlimited number of accounts has the same effect on the game over time as an unlimited number of morons with one account each. And yes, that is worth changing the game...especially when the change is 99% transparent to legitimate players but reduces the TKers' effectiveness by an equal amount...because those two TKers are having an outsized influence on the new player experience.

[Baulven]

It needs to be a combo. No friendly fire for the first 25 matches, no tk within the first minute to two minutes, if you deal damage above 20 in the first minute or over 60 at any point (this stops the legging trolls.) If you DC more than 2 matches in a row or more than 5 matches out of 10. That addresses people trying to quick drop through cadet, keeps people from eating teammates for a minute +, doesn't allow trolls to leg or shoot people. It should be enough barriers that the amount of trolls should drop.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

James Argent, on 10 October 2017 - 01:26 PM, said:

That's the thing...you can't punish them for the TK because you can only punish the account, not the player. If a single account has no meaning to them because they have a crapload of them, punishment has ZERO effect on them.

Two morons with an unlimited number of accounts has the same effect on the game over time as an unlimited number of morons with one account each. And yes, that is worth changing the game...especially when the change is 99% transparent to legitimate players but reduces the TKers' effectiveness by an equal amount...because those two TKers are having an outsized influence on the new player experience.

Look, setting up multiple accounts also takes time. At some point those people will also go away again.
And no, your equation is wrong since unlimited morons could practically shut down every game. While a few with unlimited accoutns could at best ruin a few games at a time. It does not add up. The simple multiplication doesnt do it - we have another meric at work here. (infinity of accounts) X 1 player =/= (1 account) X (infity of times).
I watched the youtube videos.
The guy from the first video is not going to play for a few hours after this match. He has to switch to his next account. Lets say he manages to do this 5 times an hour with load time wait times etc. That way even when he has infinit accounts he can only ruin 5 games per hour.
2nd video shows not a tier 5 game. Both palyers will be gone for a longer time.
So its not restriced to tier 5. Some of the names i see sometimes in my solo groups (not the TK guys). And still today with the games i played, i end up at 30 games without a teamkiller in two days.
So we now have 3 players that can at best ruin 3 games parallel out fo all the games that run at any given time.
Perhaps PGI can come and post a statistic of how many of these games happen during a day.
Or you can come and point to a few more of those TK guys. So far it looks like a non issue. I know i know it looks different for you - but only hard backed up numbers will change my mind here.
Best if PGi actually releases them and tells us about their plans on how to handle TKs. If this problem exists at all. So far i am still not convinced.

Edited by Cara Carcass, 10 October 2017 - 02:57 PM.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Baulven, on 10 October 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

It needs to be a combo. No friendly fire for the first 25 matches, no tk within the first minute to two minutes, if you deal damage above 20 in the first minute or over 60 at any point (this stops the legging trolls.) If you DC more than 2 matches in a row or more than 5 matches out of 10. That addresses people trying to quick drop through cadet, keeps people from eating teammates for a minute +, doesn't allow trolls to leg or shoot people. It should be enough barriers that the amount of trolls should drop.

Here i see a problem. The game is so instable when we get 12 ppl together in ym unit almsot every time 2 have a DC and it takes often ages to get back into a game for them. Often when tis fast they dont come back in time. Bad idea to have automated penaltys here. Same with penaltys ina premade 12 man group - one trows an unfortunate airstrike - all have to wait for 20 minutes. Sucks ***.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Look, setting up multiple accounts also takes time. At some point those people will also go away again.

I'm sorry. Did you say "it takes time"? This got posted on Facebook by the current lolertrollers:



PGI's account generating system is simple and the process to make new accounts easily automated.

[Flanking Boy]

for me i could not care if a team mate kill me accidentally, it is name of the game.
but a fool that only joint and kill (2-3 fresh mech), don't have a place in the game.

they where 2 the first time that i meet them, and they kill more or less the whole team. and in that game there was a team member there was asking why did you kill me the last time i played with you (it was also the same day)

a couple of hour later i meet them again and they ruin an other game :\

right now they are maybe only 2 or 3 guys, but if they are bragging about there deeds, who to say that there wont come more.
so i think is better to find a solutions to that problem while there is only 2.3, instead of waiting to the problem gets to big.

one funny thing one could do was, put a bounty on his head, if he kills 2-3 fresh mech in a game, eg.(500 gold for killing him).
and after if he want to use the same account he have to paid PGI the value for the 500 gold, that would stop them for using the same account. XD
and it would make a good patch on the wound

poopenshire, on 10 October 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

I fear even saying/asking if this is possible but could a limit to the number accounts can sign on for a single installation work?

say 12 log ons max per installation?

I know with VMs you can have many installations, but man to download and install that many VMs with MWO. You have to absolutely have no life at all.

i think it sound like a good idea, who need more then 12 games

[arcana75]

There is a technological fix, but it needs PGI to implement. Basically the first time the game is installed, a unique random string of characters is generated and stored somewhere in the Windows Registry, and this "key" is linked to various PC-specific info (eg router IP, geolocation by country, Windows ID, etc) via hashing (SHA, etc so there's no way to fudge it). So, reinstalling the game won't change this key, they'd have to reformat/reinstall their Windows.

I feel Team Damage is fine, even a TK since sometimes it happens in the heat of battle. But if a player does more than 1 TK per match, in fewer than say 3 consecutive matches, gets a 24-hour lock on the account based on this unique key instead of the account login. Further infractions will result in a total client-side lock based on the unique key. Basically the client install gets frozen, can't login even with different accounts, and reinstalling the client won't fix it cuz the unique key is still present in Windows and identifies that PC as being client-locked.

A hypervisor can get around this, but the MWO client can easily be programmed to detect usage of a hypervisor.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Brain Cancer, on 10 October 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

I'm sorry. Did you say "it takes time"? This got posted on Facebook by the current lolertrollers:



PGI's account generating system is simple and the process to make new accounts easily automated.

Then there is an easy fix for that. Do not allow more then 4 accounts per person. That way people can still experiment but Trolls can only waste 4 accounts.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Then there is an easy fix for that. Do not allow more then 4 accounts per person. That way people can still experiment but Trolls can only waste 4 accounts.

You've apparently never heard of throwaway mail accounts, either. The filter has to be on making it difficult to spam accounts in the game proper, rather than attempting to stop things "by email" account or IP ban.

[Odinthunderpants]

I have on two occassions ben in games where the enemy had at least three team killers . once they had finished with thier own team they turned on each other what is going on with this game

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Brain Cancer, on 11 October 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

You've apparently never heard of throwaway mail accounts, either. The filter has to be on making it difficult to spam accounts in the game proper, rather than attempting to stop things "by email" account or IP ban.

Where in my post did i say e-mail based banning or limiting? Please point to it.
But the most importan thing is. the following: Show me more than 5 different teamkillers. I have looked around for quite some time during the last days. I found 5. I asked in 6 different units to ask their low rank players. The answer was always that yes, they have seen it but only very rarely perhaps once in a month.
PGI surly can look up how manny teamkills happen early game. If the number is anything all they have to do is investigate the guy and bann him and his alts. Surely you cna find the ip or look at the mac to find the player fast or even look at the installation.
So far i do not belive its as rampant as described in this thread.

[PurpleNinja]

My profile page says I play this game since 2012. I count in my hands the matches with TK issues.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Where in my post did i say e-mail based banning or limiting? Please point to it.

4 accounts per person. Accounts are linked to a specific email.

Quote

But the most importan thing is. the following: Show me more than 5 different teamkillers. I have looked around for quite some time during the last days. I found 5. I asked in 6 different units to ask their low rank players. The answer was always that yes, they have seen it but only very rarely perhaps once in a month.
PGI surly can look up how manny teamkills happen early game. If the number is anything all they have to do is investigate the guy and bann him and his alts. Surely you cna find the ip or look at the mac to find the player fast or even look at the installation.

There aren't. The T5 kill spree is 2-3 players. It's currently going on two months worth of this, they're automatically T5 and solo queue due to the mechanics of the game. Group drops will never see the TKers, nor will players above T4 barring serious MM choke.

IPs are easily spoofed, MAC is also redoable (Apple does it as a matter of course, as MAC tracing has serious spying implications ever since the Snowden/NSA leaks). PGI cannot trace by hardware, like Blizzard does.

Multiple accounts have been documented as banned. The same players continue immediately on new accounts regardless, recognized by the common MO.

Quote

So far i do not belive its as rampant as described in this thread.

Not rampant. Just incredibly consistent and with current enforcement, very difficult to remove. If it had been doable by the methods you suggested with success, the small number of trollers here would have been gone weeks ago.

[sycocys]

If they banned TK'ers at all, even temporarily that would be an improvement.

[ingramli]

I 'd say, the main objective for new banning system, if needed, would be,

allow normal gaming mechanism (team damage) ONLY AFTER the player showed that they are serious players, not troller.

TLDR -

1. make new account do 0 team damage in their first 25 matches (as other suggested); AND

2. only 50% of damage apply to teammate for T5 players, only T4 or above players after first 25 matches (earned all cadet bonus) can do full damage to teammates; AND

3. Auto-eject for player who do KMDD/kill blow to any teammate in first minute of the game; AND

4. Auto-eject for player who have done 2 KMDD/kill blow to teammates during the entire game.

Edited by ingramli, 14 October 2017 - 04:36 AM.

[Baulven]

Cara Carcass, on 10 October 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

Here i see a problem. The game is so instable when we get 12 ppl together in ym unit almsot every time 2 have a DC and it takes often ages to get back into a game for them. Often when tis fast they dont come back in time. Bad idea to have automated penaltys here. Same with penaltys ina premade 12 man group - one trows an unfortunate airstrike - all have to wait for 20 minutes. Sucks ***.

Then add the modifier that if you reconnect that the penalty is not enacted. The key here is to keep them from ghost dropping in multiple matches. Or better yet, the cadet play doesn't advance if you disconnect prior to death. Then you just set it so if you suicide more than one match without causing damage to the enemy that the ban kicks in. That way they can't just spam their way into being able to shoot people, but it wont penalize people who actually play.

[MadDach5und]

I think it's funny how many people here like drawing their own lines for when someone should be punished, and it's always more severe than the last or current arrangement. I've been playing low tier games for close to four years and have seen all kinds of mistakes made and jokers trolled. The last set of 'Kodiak Killers' that have been popping up over the last month or so drew me back in to see what people are saying. Do you really think developers want to get MORE elaborate with their rules and punishments?

I don't condone or endorse team killing and deliberate acts of 'treason' for lack of a better word - but there are plenty of pseudo-alphas that cry foul simply because players won't obey their every notion of what 'team' play should be.
Disconnects happen.
Kids and other household emergencies turn people AFK all the freaking time.
Learning to cope with people on the internet is HOW YOU LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME.

My answer for people who start team killing instantly, or for people who rack up large amounts of team damage is rather simple... freeze their weapons IN-GAME. They really cannot do much damage after that. We can block out their audio, and the physics of the game really restricts them from doing much of anything disruptive collision or interference-wise.

Pop up screen warnings explaining why their guns are frozen. Maybe have an in-game timer for the shut down - almost like overheating. Warn them if they do anything more team-damage wise what will happen next. People that are new or bad at piloting can still walk around, scout, learn from others how to use cover - stuff like that. Jerks that are simply there to kill and grief will find jogging around in a walking tank that can't do anything BUT walk won't stick around for too long, because they aren't in it for the team anyway.

[Alex Morgaine]

Heh group play would be interesting with 12 TK-TROLL pilots vs the same XD