159 replies to this topic

[Jingseng]

You have to admit, there is something inherently "silly" to having a semi-official response to "we need to discuss new methods of banning/combating TK" be "don't discuss tk, email mods and use the in game tools you have".

It's almost the american approach to dealing with gun violence =p

If the massive amounts of reports that DO go through aren't notifying people at the other end, it can only be because no one is at the other end.

[Oldbob10025]

This might help everyone if this does happen. Record your matches as you never know when something might go down. I made this video to help people report about Team Killing and abusive people in game and it works (I_AM_ZUUL) is a example but he had a whole laundry list of complaints from not only me.

[Flanking Boy]

Chortles, on 08 October 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

What if they added KMDD for team kills? If a friendly did more damage than an enemy to a mech after it has been destroyed it is counted as a team kill with intent thus receiving a stiffer penalty (five times higher for example). Multiple team kills in a short period results in suspension or a ban.

This may make it easier for PGI to differentiate an accidental team kill with an intentional team kill while keeping it automated.

i think you need to take the player total match into account before locking an account, eg. if a player lets say he have played 1000 matches and don't have any team kill, and accidentally kill two in a mach (the could be pretty heavily damaged).
then i think it would be to hard to lock there accounts.

[The Basilisk]

I know I'll get bashed for it but hey...

I do not think Teamkilling is a gamewide problem here.

Players that play overagressive blocking your LineOfSight (LOS) towards the target, shielding the enemy from teammates fire to get the kill for their momentary achievements or are just too incompetent to realize that cuddling the enemy shields him from damage.
Those are a far more frequent problem.

Not only those malcontents work for the enemy, no they cause innocent players to rack up teamdamage and teamkills and for more important...penaltys.

THAT is a problem that needs to be adressed.

[Devlin Stone]

Problem -
Stealth Armor. It's current terrible implementation is little more than a tool for baiting friendly fire.

Edited by Devlin Stone, 09 October 2017 - 01:02 AM.

[Appogee]

The Basilisk, on 09 October 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

I do not think Teamkilling is a gamewide problem here.

There have been a couple of serial Tkers terrorising Tier 5 for at least a couple of months.

I hate to think how many new players may have turned off the game.

That is the problem still to be addressed.

[Shifty McSwift]

The Basilisk, on 09 October 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

I know I'll get bashed for it but hey...

I do not think Teamkilling is a gamewide problem here.

Players that play overagressive blocking your LineOfSight (LOS) towards the target, shielding the enemy from teammates fire to get the kill for their momentary achievements or are just too incompetent to realize that cuddling the enemy shields him from damage.
Those are a far more frequent problem.

Not only those malcontents work for the enemy, no they cause innocent players to rack up teamdamage and teamkills and for more important...penaltys.

THAT is a problem that needs to be adressed.

Yeah but don't forget these are generally only problems that occur with teams actually moving together, and they often aren't done with ill intent. Everyone rushes in to try and get those last couple of kills for example, if you get cut off from a shot, it is often likely that you were about to cut off someone elses shot, they just got in there first.

When it comes to shielding enemies, it depends on circumstance, some push toward enemies to brawl, other slam on reverse and start peeping when the see an enemy, these two things don't go together well in clogged quarters, and you end up with a lot of "three stooging" going on in those instances.

The intent of a lot of people who push hard, is to provide target saturation while trying to split focus (and get to some backs or make the enemy turn and expose backs to your team), and yes a good opponent will use them as a shield through firing fields if they can. Some of this kind of stuff is literally unavoidable at those ends, but I agree some more general training wouldn't go astray in any way.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 09 October 2017 - 01:52 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Appogee, on 09 October 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

There have been a couple of serial Tkers terrorising Tier 5 for at least a couple of months.

I hate to think how many new players may have turned off the game.

That is the problem still to be addressed.

Agreed. A system for new players is probably the most viable solution. Make new accounts go through a large amount of whatever before they can join into QP and start fighting, maybe a "trial mode" where you only get access to trial mechs or something.

That is a real issue for sure.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

OldOrgandonor, on 08 October 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

That's why my suggestion in the OTHER thread that PGI already locked was:

How about doing a certain "X" amount of team damage at match start, say <30-45 seconds, OR doing a certain "X" amount of cumulative team damage in match, OR more than 1 TK per day, turns your mech bright glowing orange, turns off team damage, turns OFF penalty for your team mates killing you, changes your in game title to "TK-TROLL", and it takes 100 matches for the penalty to go away.

Then it resets itself, so if in your 101st match, you do it again, it turns on again?

Instead of "banning" one of their 100's of throw away accounts, lock out their ability to troll the game entirely.

I am against your suggestion. I had days wher a freindly light jumped over my mech from behind me landed in front of me while i realeased the gauss. Bam teamkill. Next match early in teh pokeing period before teh brawl started i threw an airstrike jsut to see our light suddenly enageing catching teh bomb shells with their faces and boom teamkill.

The first 30 seconds, any team damage over 20 points should get you a 10 minute penalty and additional 10 minutes for every 10 damage you add up afterwards. Perhaps the time when a temkill starts to be seen as accidential could start after the first enemy mech was hit signaling the real start of the match.

I guess thats my 2 cents - make it so that teamdamge before the first inter team damage was done counts.

Edited by Cara Carcass, 09 October 2017 - 03:37 AM.

[poopenshire]

I have a question, I have seen it hinted at but not fully discussed.

We know we already have a timeout timer for team damage and it progressively increases for repeated infractions (it includes TKs)

Is this system maybe on the right path but needs to be increased in penalties or does it need to lead to different penalties?

Edit: added "timeout"

Edited by poopenshire, 09 October 2017 - 03:40 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Seriously - I don't get why the damage and the penalties does not stack.
I can't remember a single game were i didn't deal team damage. Sometimes it is just that somebody runs into your mech.
Heck teamkilled lights by doing nothing - their path simple crossed mine and they did run into my mech - destroying their own.

But the difference is 1 damage and tk is not the same as 100dmg and TK.

Well and the answer like always in MWO are non-linear values - 4 x 4dmg < 16dmg

[Unnatural Growth]

poopenshire, on 09 October 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

I have a question, I have seen it hinted at but not fully discussed.

We know we already have a timeout timer for team damage and it progressively increases for repeated infractions (it includes TKs)

Is this system maybe on the right path but needs to be increased in penalties or does it need to lead to different penalties?

Edit: added "timeout"

If we're talking about these certain TK crews going around with 100's of throw away accounts, then no. Increasing a timeout timer for a guy that's just going to drop that account and start up with another won't really do anything (I don't think).

Maybe we do need a mandatory academy training mission (or missions) to be completed before you're allowed to drop in any matches. Maybe couple that with the suggestions of in game penalties, turning off team damage after "X" amount of team damage given, turning off penalty for your team killing a TK'r, etc?

I know there are legitimate players that like to try a new game by just dropping in a game (match) and trying it out cold turkey, so that will be harder for some new players to be forced into a mandatory academy. Will it turn some away? Don't know, maybe less than dropping into a match and getting TK'd by children?

[poopenshire]

OldOrgandonor, on 09 October 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

If we're talking about these certain TK crews going around with 100's of throw away accounts, then no. Increasing a timeout timer for a guy that's just going to drop that account and start up with another won't really do anything (I don't think).

Maybe we do need a mandatory academy training mission (or missions) to be completed before you're allowed to drop in any matches. Maybe couple that with the suggestions of in game penalties, turning off team damage after "X" amount of team damage given, turning off penalty for your team killing a TK'r, etc?

I know there are legitimate players that like to try a new game by just dropping in a game (match) and trying it out cold turkey, so that will be harder for some new players to be forced into a mandatory academy. Will it turn some away? Don't know, maybe less than dropping into a match and getting TK'd by children?

Honestly, when I started there was no Academy. It was a hellish learning curve from previous Mechwarrior games. I would have loved to play in a test setting for a bit before being thrown to the wolves, but that's just me. I do not think that is the norm though for most players.

I guess since MWO is a multiplayer game only it comes with different issues.

Right now when an account starts out does it start at Tier 3 or a different tier? Would having new accounts start at say Tier 5 and not change until after the cadet phase is over with be a way to deal with it. I am not saying Tier 5 or any of the tiers are deserving or the right place for it, but would being Tier locked at 5 until the cadet phase is over maybe help? I know it still exposes new accounts to T5,4,and 3 but maybe it would help limit the population exposed and take some of the fun out that kind of behavior?

[Shifty McSwift]

poopenshire, on 09 October 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

I have a question, I have seen it hinted at but not fully discussed.

We know we already have a timeout timer for team damage and it progressively increases for repeated infractions (it includes TKs)

Is this system maybe on the right path but needs to be increased in penalties or does it need to lead to different penalties?

Edit: added "timeout"

It is a fine enough penalty for deterring indiscriminate firing and hurting teammates with FF, but it alone isn't enough for the issues like multi account trolling.

[poopenshire]

Shifty McSwift, on 09 October 2017 - 04:36 AM, said:

It is a fine enough penalty for deterring indiscriminate firing and hurting teammates with FF, but it alone isn't enough for the issues like multi account trolling.

So in other words, TK should be a separate penalty compared to team damage. It does seem like since it already in the system it should be possible to ask about.

Would a TK be a 2 minute to start with, and increase to 10 minutes for the 2nd one. And, do we count it per hour or per day?

I have no clue what would be appropriate but if people are trying to get attention to this, the more thought out we are the more likely we are to get it looked at and taken seriously.

[Jingseng]

Let's be clear for the people chiming in about simply/merely shooting teammates.

We are not talking about that.

we are talking about people who enter a match for the express purpose of killing their teammates, often right at the drop zone, on purpose. NOT AN ACCIDENT. People who do it repeatedly, especially because:

1) the first two timers are practically over in the time it takes you click dismiss the notice.

2) they can make an infinite amount of free trial accounts and use trial mechs to unload alphas PB in your rear armor.

They are not accidentally killing a teammate who wanders in front as a gauss round is let loose. This is not the idiot who tabs back from youtube and accidentally alphas whatever is in front of him.

This is someone who specifically goes into the game with the intent of killing however many teammates he can. And does so repeatedly until the account is on a timeout annoying enough for them to switch to another account and do so again. And does so until some sort of action is taken against his accounts (which is frankly, never).

If you are chiming in or disagreeing on the basis of accidental team damage, face huggers, even the occasional rage kill... this is not about you. This is about a systemic abuse of MWO's systems to grief. Understand that when making your comments about disagreeing...

Keep in mind too that at some point, sacrifices may have to be made/may be appropriate to deal with what is a serious problem that affects a large part of the player base, can crop up repeatedly, and goes unpunished routinely - both of the course of days when it occurs, as well as overall (it's coming up roughly once every two months or so, for a stretch of two or three days. Short of servers being down, it's one of the more effective ways to utterly kill a game by shrinking its playerbase.)

This is not a new issue, and it is a serious one that deserves serious commentary and action, with thinking beyond "well sometimes I hit an idiot who rushes in front". Yes, it is their fault. Yes, we've all done that. No, this is not about you. But to solve the problem, it might have to overlap.

[Lily from animove]

I definately think the game should have an autoreport feature should an unusual amount of tk's happen in the non private Queues to trigger some staff investigating it.

[kesmai]

Nope.
Not needed.
What we need are new players.
Thousands of them.

[Ghogiel]

poopenshire, on 09 October 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

So in other words, TK should be a separate penalty compared to team damage. It does seem like since it already in the system it should be possible to ask about.

Would a TK be a 2 minute to start with, and increase to 10 minutes for the 2nd one. And, do we count it per hour or per day?

I have no clue what would be appropriate but if people are trying to get attention to this, the more thought out we are the more likely we are to get it looked at and taken seriously.

they already are likely to incure at a minimum of a 10min penalty in just one game as is since the penalties can stack all in one game.
All they need to do is 70 team dmg to hit the 10sec timer, 1tk to hit the second 2min, then 10min for their 2nd tk.

If they end up with 150dmg and a 3rd tk on top the account would be locked out for like 4hrs. Which by the sounds of it is probably what it ends up at most of the time anyway. No matter any timeout changes, which I would staunchly be against increasing, they probably aren't waiting around for 4hrs for their timeout to reset, they are just relogging.

[kesmai]

Can confirm that 400 teamdamage and 2 tk's give you enough time to do the laundry, vacuum the flat and do the dishes.

Don't ask...