36 replies to this topic

[Scout Derek]

Brain Cancer, on 09 October 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

They're useless because PGI can't actually code multiple fire modes at this point, nor make them useful at long ranges. Cluster ammo is closer to a flak round than anything else- in TT, you can hit with the full pellet spread even at the end of the range band.

And LB-10X are lighter because they were originally going to be Star League tech, which was the original plans for Clan tech. Once FASA dropped the ball and made a completely OP tech tree for them instead, it was relegated to being used for the IS tech tree instead, thus other LB's were "balanced" around those.

You'll notice a lot of SL tech was "better than" without balancers, most notably Gauss and LB-10X. That's because it was the initial tech update for Battletech, and would have been the "Clantech" had FASA not decided to screw everyone up forever by putting out things like halfweight LRM launchers, pulse/targeting computer+ better gunnery skill Clan standards, and so on.

Or maybe... just maybe, when they altered Cry Engine to make this game work, they might've broken some stuff?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Most obvious and easy to code solution is to just raise the LBX pellet 50% more damage, this way the normal ACs are more useful at longer ranges while the LBX are all decent weapons to use up close.

[Jun Watarase]

PGI's definition of easy to code is very different compared to the average person. I mean, they find changing numbers in an xml file hard...

[Brain Cancer]

Scout Derek, on 09 October 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

Or maybe... just maybe, when they altered Cry Engine to make this game work, they might've broken some stuff?

And maybe, despite years and promises to fix it, they didn't?

Dakota1000, on 09 October 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

Most obvious and easy to code solution is to just raise the LBX pellet 50% more damage, this way the normal ACs are more useful at longer ranges while the LBX are all decent weapons to use up close.

Keep the damage the same, increase equipment damage dealt by at least 3, if not to 5 per pellet, don't give them additional critical damage at all, but do increase their odds of getting a crit.

Voila. LB-X, even small ones become useful at scrubbing out equipment in exposed sections, making them cousins to MGs.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Brain Cancer, on 09 October 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

And maybe, despite years and promises to fix it, they didn't?


Keep the damage the same, increase equipment damage dealt by at least 3, if not to 5 per pellet, don't give them additional critical damage at all, but do increase their odds of getting a crit.

Voila. LB-X, even small ones become useful at scrubbing out equipment in exposed sections, making them cousins to MGs.

Wish we'd just give up on the whole LBX critting thing and give it some actual damage. I want a gun that is good at hurting some enemies with armor, not a gun that rips up some components. Why would I get a gun that blows components out of a section but leaves the section when I could just get a gun that removes the section entirely along with all the components, and maybe kills the mech or takes an arm with it?

[Brain Cancer]

Dakota1000, on 09 October 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

Wish we'd just give up on the whole LBX critting thing and give it some actual damage. I want a gun that is good at hurting some enemies with armor, not a gun that rips up some components. Why would I get a gun that blows components out of a section but leaves the section when I could just get a gun that removes the section entirely along with all the components, and maybe kills the mech or takes an arm with it?

Because if you give a weapon extra damage to compensate for spread, it simply because a superior close combat weapon when you can negate the spread via proximity. Pellets do 2 damage per? LB-20X is effectively an AC/40 at close range that's probably better than an AC/20 anyway until it's spread puts less than 20 damage (that is, half the pellets) into a single location.

[Jun Watarase]

Brain Cancer, on 09 October 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

Because if you give a weapon extra damage to compensate for spread, it simply because a superior close combat weapon when you can negate the spread via proximity. Pellets do 2 damage per? LB-20X is effectively an AC/40 at close range that's probably better than an AC/20 anyway until it's spread puts less than 20 damage (that is, half the pellets) into a single location.

Uh...thats exactly the logic used for SRMs...

[Y E O N N E]

Brain Cancer, on 09 October 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

Because if you give a weapon extra damage to compensate for spread, it simply because a superior close combat weapon when you can negate the spread via proximity. Pellets do 2 damage per? LB-20X is effectively an AC/40 at close range that's probably better than an AC/20 anyway until it's spread puts less than 20 damage (that is, half the pellets) into a single location.

That is the entire point. It sucks everywhere else, might as well make it good in one niche.

[Shifty McSwift]

If all regular ACs fired in short bursts there would be more parity there too. But that is blasphemy to some

[Bombast]

Shifty McSwift, on 09 October 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

If all regular ACs fired in short bursts there would be more parity there too. But that is blasphemy to some

You'd have to find some other way to make IS ACs not terrible, then.

[Shifty McSwift]

Bombast, on 09 October 2017 - 11:37 PM, said:

You'd have to find some other way to make IS ACs not terrible, then.

You mean because of the UAC? To me that just means they need to make the UAC slightly less appealing like they already have been in some ways (increased heat and jamming etc).

If you mean terrible vs the LBX, I don't think it is, the point would be to make it a reasonable choice between spread in a single volley or accuracy in a short stream, that being the variable that matters in the distinction, all other stats could be the same on the guns in that sense (it being the same gun firing different rounds essentially).

[Curccu]

Making every LB-AC 1 slot and ton smaller and cooler than normal AC, like LB10X vs AC10 might be reason enough to take them sometimes. Instead of that we got 1 slot larger LB20 for IS side... *insert facepalm smiley here*.

[lazytopaz]

This thread just reminds me how PGI doesn't like fun in their game (from time to time).
Remember CN9-D and it's LBX10 quirks ?... I miss it a lot. It was a decent mech back then.

Back on topic : Probably not gonna happen. Great balance meisters are content with current state of the game.

My humble wish is they would throw around whole meta upside down each month (similiar to the scale of meta shift when new tech was released).

Edited by lazytopaz, 10 October 2017 - 06:20 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Jay Leon Hart, on 09 October 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Why? TT LBX are worth a damn, PGI's half-assed versions are not.

TT tonnage and slot requirements are apparently sacred, too, so TPTB won't change them.

Now, if you were to ask for a damage change, like SRMs or most lasers...

To be honest, a lot of that has to do with the increased chance of a critical hit with the TT rules. The more rolls per shot, the better chance of a crit. Armor has nothing to do with it.

PGI is unable to emulate that critical system because of multiple hits needed to kill an internal object. Engines require 3, Gyros 2. Everything takes critical space, they went with some HP system or other.

Here, LBX has had it's critical chance nerfed so badly that it's hardly worth bothering. Not to mention that they can't do swappable ammo, so having the slightly better range is useless. Even the "placeholder" Clan ACs don't have single shot, like the slug ammo would have.

Nope, LBX aren't much good unless something increases their chances of a critical again. Not even paired with SRMs.

[The6thMessenger]

process, on 09 October 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

Give IS LBs +50% damage and Clan +20% damage, leave every other stat alone, and try that out for a few weeks.

That's still pretty bad for the LB20X that forces us to use STD engine.

[Y E O N N E]

Shifty McSwift, on 10 October 2017 - 12:00 AM, said:

You mean because of the UAC? To me that just means they need to make the UAC slightly less appealing like they already have been in some ways (increased heat and jamming etc).

If you mean terrible vs the LBX, I don't think it is, the point would be to make it a reasonable choice between spread in a single volley or accuracy in a short stream, that being the variable that matters in the distinction, all other stats could be the same on the guns in that sense (it being the same gun firing different rounds essentially).

He means less terrible than cACs, since those are smaller and lighter with greater range.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 October 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

He means less terrible than cACs, since those are smaller and lighter with greater range.

Oh, well it's certainly no great argument to point out that that doesn't seem to apply to most guns, but it is true.

It could just be scaled out too, with IS ACs having the shortest burst (say 3 bullets as an example), then building up to clan UAC being the longest stream (with a full double burst being some 12 projectiles or whatnot).