56 replies to this topic

[Tlords]

I'm serious. I love the laser changes. In my opinion, 2 one-ton weapons should never outperform a single 4 ton / 5 ton weapon.

A lot of the discussion I'm seeing regarding the change is medium lasers should have shorter cool downs than large lasers. My response is why? Just because its been that way, isn't good enough of an answer for me.

Let's look at the facts. C-ERMLs weigh 4x less than a C-ERLL. For the inner sphere, their medium lasers weigh 5x less than LL and ERLL. 2 C-ERML with 2 double heatsinks weighs the same as a C-ERLL and does 3 pts more damage, while running cooler. The C-ERLL only advantage is range.

This change makes one LL (clan or Inner Sphere) slightly better than 2-ML and I salute PGI for doing this.

[Papaspud]

Tlords, on 15 October 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

I'm serious. I love the laser changes. In my opinion, 2 one-ton weapons should never outperform a single 4 ton / 5 ton weapon.

A lot of the discussion I'm seeing regarding the change is medium lasers should have shorter cool downs than large lasers. My response is why? Just because its been that way, isn't good enough of an answer for me.

Let's look at the facts. C-ERMLs weigh 4x less than a C-ERLL. For the inner sphere, their medium lasers weigh 5x less than LL and ERLL. 2 C-ERML with 2 double heatsinks weighs the same as a C-ERLL and does 3 pts more damage, while running cooler. The C-ERLL only advantage is range.

This change makes one LL (clan or Inner Sphere) slightly better than 2-ML and I salute PGI for doing this.

YES!! more clan alpha builds, that's a winner.... said no one that wasn't a clanner ever.

[FupDup]

Tlords, on 15 October 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

I'm serious. I love the laser changes. In my opinion, 2 one-ton weapons should never outperform a single 4 ton / 5 ton weapon.

A lot of the discussion I'm seeing regarding the change is medium lasers should have shorter cool downs than large lasers. My response is why? Just because its been that way, isn't good enough of an answer for me.

The answer is because they have a shorter range by a pretty big margin.

Shorter ranged guns are supposed to be ton-for-ton more efficient than long-ranged guns. Otherwise there's no point in using shorter ranged guns at all.

Papaspud, on 15 October 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:

YES!! more clan alpha builds, that's a winner.... said no one that wasn't a clanner ever.

Fixed. Please don't make this about petty faction politics, because not everyone is a roleplayer.

[Novakaine]

Yeah I always clap for the clowns at the circus myself.

[El Bandito]

Tlords, on 15 October 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

This change makes one LL (clan or Inner Sphere) slightly better than 2-ML and I salute PGI for doing this.

So, favoring Heavies and Assaults over Lights and Mediums? Kicking the underdogs even more?

Edited by El Bandito, 15 October 2017 - 07:29 PM.

[Papaspud]

FupDup, on 15 October 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

The answer is because they have a shorter range by a pretty big margin.

Shorter ranged guns are supposed to be ton-for-ton more efficient than long-ranged guns. Otherwise there's no point in using shorter ranged guns at all.


Fixed. Please don't make this about petty faction politics, because not everyone is a roleplayer.

Well when I can run something that has 70+ alpha on an IS that isn't lrms get back to me, thanks. Any other answer is ...hahahahahaha clan bias is obvious at this point and there is nothing else to be said.... GG go clans go!!!!

[Mister Blastman]

So OP, by your logic, because it is heavier it should be better, nevermind the range and damage duration differences...

Yeah, I disagree. Tonnage is too simplistic a way to measure weaponry.

[Bombast]

I look forward to the arguments about how the AC/20, as a large caliber weapon, should out range the AC/2, a small caliber weapon.

No rush. I'll wait.

[Jun Watarase]

Papaspud, on 15 October 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Well when I can run something that has 70+ alpha on an IS that isn't lrms get back to me, thanks. Any other answer is ...hahahahahaha clan bias is obvious at this point and there is nothing else to be said.... GG go clans go!!!!

You don't appear to be factoring in things like burn duration, heat efficiency, etc.

Here, let me do another simplistic comparison : 6x IS ML does more damage than 4x C-MPL, same burn duration, nearly the same range, weighs 2 tons less, IS OP right? To top it off i can put them on a heavy mech with the armor of an assault, good hitboxes AND shield arms! And then I get a 10 ton advantage to boot!

Serious question : Have you never seen long duration lasers nullified via torso twisting? There is literally nothing the clan mech can do except watch the damage go to the shield arms. And then scream for help as his huge side torso gets taken out by 0.5s burn duration pulse lasers.

I use IS mechs in QP and they just laugh at clan mechs. When I see an annihilator, I know its going to be a pain to take out. When I see a dire wolf, i start salivating at the easy kill.

Have you tried the Cougar yet by the way? 81 kph light mech with minimal structure quirks. It's even larger than an urbie! With less armor!

Edited by Jun Watarase, 15 October 2017 - 07:50 PM.

[Bombast]

Jun Watarase, on 15 October 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

Here, let me do another simplistic comparison : 6x IS ML does more damage than 4x C-MPL, same burn duration, nearly the same range, weighs 2 tons less, IS OP right? To top it off i can put them on a heavy mech with the armor of an assault, good hitboxes AND shield arms! And then I get a 10 ton advantage to boot!

Where do you get these bizarre, crappy build comparisons from? I wouldn't put 6 MLs on my Jester, and that thing is a paltry 65 tons.

Edited by Bombast, 15 October 2017 - 07:56 PM.

[Papaspud]

Jun Watarase, on 15 October 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

You don't appear to be factoring in things like burn duration, heat efficiency, etc.

Here, let me do another simplistic comparison : 6x IS ML does more damage than 4x C-MPL, same burn duration, nearly the same range, weighs 2 tons less, IS OP right? To top it off i can put them on a heavy mech with the armor of an assault, good hitboxes AND shield arms! And then I get a 10 ton advantage to boot!

Serious question : Have you never seen long duration lasers nullified via torso twisting? There is literally nothing the clan mech can do except watch the damage go to the shield arms. And then scream for help as his huge side torso gets taken out by 0.5s burn duration pulse lasers.

I use IS mechs in QP and they just laugh at clan mechs. When I see an annihilator, I know its going to be a pain to take out. When I see a dire wolf, i start salivating at the easy kill.

Have you tried the Cougar yet by the way? 81 kph light mech with minimal structure quirks. It's even larger than an urbie! With less armor!

JUN, jump back in your clan mechs and have fun, you are about to lose the IS side of the equation, I am tired of being a target for monster clan alphas..... OMG the cougar is bad...we need to buff it- See all IS med and lights after this patch, except maybe a few outliers.

GG PGI, go clans go!!!!!

Edited by Papaspud, 15 October 2017 - 08:03 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Bombast, on 15 October 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

Where do you get these bizarre, crappy build comparisons from? I wouldn't put 6 MLs on my Jester, and that thing is a paltry 65 tons.

I said it was a simplistic comparison, because papaspud was simply looking at large alpha numbers while ignoring everything else.

Its like saying a light mech with 4x SRM-6s is OP because "omg a light mech can do a 48 damage alpha!!!" while ignoring the fact that its spread damage, short range, etc.

Papaspud, on 15 October 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

JUN, jump back in your clan mechs and have fun, you are about to lose the IS side of the equation, I am tired of being a target for monster clan alphas..... OMG the cougar is bad...we need to buff it- See all IS med and lights after this patch, except maybe a few outliers.

GG PGI, go clans go!!!!!

Why dont you simply torso twist and block the "monstrous clan alpha" with your shield arms? Genuine question. You have PPFLD and shorter duration lasers, so you can start torso twisting while they are still in their laser burn.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 15 October 2017 - 08:09 PM.

[Bombast]

Jun Watarase, on 15 October 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

Its like saying a light mech with 4x SRM-6s is OP because "omg a light mech can do a 48 damage alpha!!!" while ignoring the fact that its spread damage, short range, etc.

Well, no one says that, because its stupid, it's not OP, and it doesn't really work (Well, if we went back in time, it used to work pretty well on Jenner IICs, but that's something else).

Unlike large laser alphas. Which do work, quite well

Nice strawman, though. Really creepy face.

[Papaspud]

Jun Watarase, on 15 October 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

I said it was a simplistic comparison, because papaspud was simply looking at large alpha numbers while ignoring everything else.

Its like saying a light mech with 4x SRM-6s is OP because "omg a light mech can do a 48 damage alpha!!!" while ignoring the fact that its spread damage, short range, etc.



Why dont you simply torso twist and block the "monstrous clan alpha" with your shield arms? Genuine question. You have PPFLD and shorter duration lasers, so you can start torso twisting while they are still in their laser burn.

Because maybe I want to shoot back? You need to point me to the IS mechs that can alpha30- 50 and then immediately hide or "torso twist, to not get destroyed clan alpha 70- 80... I will wait. You are just such a clan fanboy that your comments are just funny, not useful at all.

Edited by Papaspud, 15 October 2017 - 08:17 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Again, the point was that just looking at one aspect (large damage numbers) while ignoring everything else does not give you an accurate picture.

You know, much like how PGI nerfed the DRG-1C.

Papaspud, on 15 October 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

Because maybe I want to shoot back? You need to point me to the IS mechs that can alpha and then immediately hide to not get destroyed... I will wait. You are just such a clan fanboy that your comments are just funny, not useful at all.

I never said you cant shoot back.

You have PPFLD and lower duration lasers. I will even run some maths for you :

You shoot with 0.5s pulse lasers. He shoots you with 1.3s heavy lasers. Both of you shoot at the same time to be fair.

You have 0.8s after your burn duration finishes to start torso twisting. Why dont you?

If you use PPFLD or anything that doesn't require face time like SRMs, you can even start torso twisting immediately after pressing the mouse button.

Low on HP? Angle your shield arms to face him and yell for help from your teammates. He has to shoot through your arms to get at your side torso, and then he will be at heat threshold when your teammates show up. I have seen IS groups do this many times.

Btw, I have a warhammer with heavy PPCs that can fire and then immediately start to torso twist/reverse behind cover. SRM assassins/bushwackers/cyclops can easily do this too and is commonly done when brawling on maps like vitric forge.

Or you can just use 0.5s pulse lasers which is the most popular choice at the moment.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 15 October 2017 - 08:27 PM.

[Zergling]

Tlords, on 15 October 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

In my opinion, 2 one-ton weapons should never outperform a single 4 ton / 5 ton weapon.

That is how it works in TT.

2x IS Medium Laser = 2 tons, 9 hex range, 10 damage, 6 heat
1x IS Large Laser = 5 tons, 15 hex range, 8 damage, 8 heat

The difference is in range, which is actually important and useful in both TT and MWO. And nevermind it only takes a single hardpoint in MWO for a large laser, versus 2 hardpoints for the medium lasers.

[Papaspud]

Zergling, on 15 October 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

That is how it works in TT.

2x IS Medium Laser = 2 tons, 9 hex range, 10 damage, 6 heat
1x IS Large Laser = 5 tons, 15 hex range, 8 damage, 8 heat

The difference is in range, which is actually important and useful in both TT and MWO. And nevermind it only takes a single hardpoint in MWO for a large laser, versus 2 hardpoints for the medium lasers.

1 CHML- 1 ton= 10 points.... so much for that formula.

[Anhydrite]

IS also has to cross huge open areas to get within Med laser range, while clan have ERL laser snipers shooting from 2 different corners of map. Most maps do not favor IS/short range engagements. My Crab27B has 6x MPL. Less then 220m optimal range.

About 13 DPS. untill after nerf...then 11 DPS. but only if I close to knife fighting ranges. Outside of 450 ish I do no damage. How does that compare to your large lasers now clans?

[Papaspud]

Anhydrite, on 15 October 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

IS also has to cross huge open areas to get within Med laser range, while clan have ERL laser snipers shooting from 2 different corners of map. Most maps do not favor IS/short range engagements. My Crab27B has 6x MPL. Less then 220m optimal range.

About 13 DPS. untill after nerf...then 11 DPS. but only if I close to knife fighting ranges. Outside of 450 ish I do no damage. How does that compare to your large lasers now clans?

It compares the way they like it.... all clans all the time, can you say MWOWC= clan championship.

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

IS also has to cross huge open areas to get within Med laser range,

Uh...what? Most maps have plenty of cover. If you are not moving from cover to cover when closing, you are doing it wrong. There are badly designed maps that are exceptions to this rule and if you are running into a 12 man firing line, it doesnt matter who is clan or IS, you are going to get hurt. Ive lost a side torso in my warhawk just running in through the Boreal gate to the hill on the left when facing a 12 man.

Btw im currently leveling a 97 kph SRM Kitfox with bad hitboxes in QP. And IS pulse lasers have a longer effective range than that. I also have a Zeus with low slung weapon arms + bad hitboxes and I have no issues getting in range to use my medium pulse lasers on most maps.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 15 October 2017 - 08:33 PM.