41 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

FP events are influenced very heavily with how bad IS pugs are in general. All those trial mechs with LRMs on maps like victric forge. Trial mechs with LRMs really should be removed.

[Sjorpha]

IS got a temporary swing in FP because of mercs testing new tech plus playing the event, key word is "temporary" because once tested the bias towards picking the faction with stronger tech more often returned.

If you want relevant information on IS vs Clan balance it's better to look at those charts of IS/Clan picks in the WC matches.

[Vellron2005]

Jun Watarase, on 16 October 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

FP events are influenced very heavily with how bad IS pugs are in general. All those trial mechs with LRMs on maps like victric forge. Trial mechs with LRMs really should be removed.

Errrr... I've been looking for Trial mecs with LRMs, and there are NONE.. I looked.

Please point me toward one on the Clan side especially.. since I actually need one for my secondary account..

Also, LRMs can be deadly if you're defending on Vitric.. Just climb on top of Gen 2 and LRM away.. perfect for defending the gens and Omega..

But LRM haters would not know that..

[CK16]

Sjorpha, on 16 October 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

IS got a temporary swing in FP because of mercs testing new tech plus playing the event, key word is "temporary" because once tested the bias towards picking the faction with stronger tech more often returned.

If you want relevant information on IS vs Clan balance it's better to look at those charts of IS/Clan picks in the WC matches.

Still not that reliable considering the most used heavy is the Summoner and assault being the Supernova. That by current in game standards are hardly considered top of their class.

[Gas Guzzler]

FP is not a good indication of balance....

[Jun Watarase]

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

Errrr... I've been looking for Trial mecs with LRMs, and there are NONE.. I looked.

Please point me toward one on the Clan side especially.. since I actually need one for my secondary account..

Also, LRMs can be deadly if you're defending on Vitric.. Just climb on top of Gen 2 and LRM away.. perfect for defending the gens and Omega..

But LRM haters would not know that..

Uh...what? The trial kintaro/stalker both have LRMs...make sure to select the trial mech filter in the mechbay.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 16 October 2017 - 07:04 AM.

[HGAK47]

They cant even implement a decent basic chat / grouping system for people to find friends / groups to play with and join. That is something games 10+ years ago had yet 5 years down the road from beta and its still nowhere to be seen here.

Its the little things that would really make quite an impact to the average joes like me.

[Jay Leon Hart]

CK16, on 16 October 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

Still not that reliable considering the most used heavy is the Summoner and assault being the Supernova. That by current in game standards are hardly considered top of their class.

No comments on the most used Light (ACH) or Medium (HBK-IIC-A) ?

How about the 2nd, 3rd, 5th & 6th most used Heavy? (NTG, TBR, EBJ, LBK).

The 2nd, 3rd & 4th most used Assault? (MAD-IIC, KDK-3, WHK).

[Jun Watarase]

CK16, on 16 October 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

Still not that reliable considering the most used heavy is the Summoner and assault being the Supernova. That by current in game standards are hardly considered top of their class.

The most used clan heavy is the EBJ or HBR. Summoner ER PPC poptart builds usually do not have enough damage in FP. Especially on seige mode.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 16 October 2017 - 07:10 AM.

[Sjorpha]

CK16, on 16 October 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

Still not that reliable considering the most used heavy is the Summoner and assault being the Supernova. That by current in game standards are hardly considered top of their class.

They are top in their class in all kinds of high end organised team play, not sure where you derive these "in game standards" from, generally speaking the competitive level is the only producing useful data on balance in any game, and MWO is no exception to that.

In quickplay the Mad 2C and MC 2 are more versatile with Deathstrike topping the curve, but all the top class mechs in all game modes are still Clan mechs to it doesn't really change the picture.

Every time mathematically inclined people like Tarogato makes the efforto to compile sets of data on mech strength, whether it's leaderboards, quickplay EOM screens and so on and so forth they always show the same picture every time, that clan tech is significantly stronger and the best mechs are clan mechs.

The response from people like yourself is always that it somehow indicates nothing at all and is all useless because reasons. So data from comp is not good enough, data from leaderboards is not good enough, data from compiled quickplay results is not good enough, data from Faction play is not good enough. Nothing is good enough and the fact that every single available approach points to the same conclusion is happily ignored because you have found a way to dismiss them individually by either pretending they exist in bubbles or setting impossibly high bars for relevance (which as a bonus also sounds cool and aloof), so let's just fondle our dongles and smirk in unison at how bad "IS players" are in faction play.

Jesus cockslapping mother of disney...

[Jun Watarase]

The game is very different in different modes. Your ER PPC poptart build is not going to do help much when IS assaults are gen rushing on emerald taiga.

[CK16]

Sjorpha, on 16 October 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

Stuff

Are you going to tell me that the Super Nova being 50% of the Assaults used is mathematically pointing to it being the best Assault in game?

Or the Summoner over 50% making it the go to premium heavy in game?

NO they are niche choices for what they desired! The WC numbers are not the only numbers to go off of. The ACH and HBK might be a stronger argument maybe I will agree. But the numbers for Assaults and Heavys? Not so much....Considering the MAD IIC is the go to assault by many players standards, yet is still not the most used behind the SNV?

Edited by CK16, 16 October 2017 - 07:43 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Jun Watarase, on 16 October 2017 - 07:27 AM, said:

The game is very different in different modes. Your ER PPC poptart build is not going to do help much when IS assaults are gen rushing on emerald taiga.

Exactly this. I do great with my Summoner all the time in quick play matches, but its just not a viable faction play mech. I put out 20 pin point damage per shot, its just no match for my Hellbringer that pumps out 78 per shot, even if its more spread out its still more than double the output. To defend against a push you need some high raw damage output, UAC boats, laser boats, potentially even MRM and ATM boats help out much more than the guy plinking away 20 damage on a hitbox every 5 seconds or so.

Tournament play is so completely different than FW play, I wish MWO would add in more competitive brackets, give us the normal thing we have now but also add in a FW comp play mode. It would be much more interesting to see the influence of drop deck choice and professional players on both teams and would finally give us some indicator of actual balance between the factions by having teams of equal skill on both sides. They could have each team swap factions for match ups and all that too.

[El Bandito]

Jun Watarase, on 16 October 2017 - 07:27 AM, said:

The game is very different in different modes. Your ER PPC poptart build is not going to do help much when IS assaults are gen rushing on emerald taiga.

Pfft. Brawler Orion-IICs and MCII-2s can easily stop such gen rush thanks to the funneling nature of Siege maps + slow speed of IS Assaults. In fact, rushing gens with IS Assaults is a very dumb thing to do. Compared to that, three waves of Linebacker rush by Clans have far better success ratio--such tactic has been exploited by all good Clan units, when they know good IS units are defending.

No one competent brings CERPPC Summoner on Taiga defense, BTW.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 October 2017 - 08:21 AM.

[dwwolf]

55 : 45 is actually a huuuge difference.
Its means one side is winning almost 22% more matches.

Thats not fun.

[MischiefSC]

Mercs went IS to play with the new tech and test balance.

They (we) identified that for certain, Clan tech was overall superior. Also that IS pugs were some of the most bitter, defeatist, unenjoyable people you could ever end up playing with as a given rule. Some I'm certain are great folks but the vast majority were just miserable, inflexible, antisocial and so bitter they could get banned while posting on 4Chan.

So everyone migrated back to Clans to farm the LP in the new factions. The bulk of the remaining IS loyalists voided, leaving only those terribad pugs, whos approach to the situation was not to do what everyone who was/is beating them did and learn to take good mechs, play to your team and make good choices but instead to say that doing so was just like haxx and FW should be just like QP. So even less people wanted to be on their side.

The hope had been that the new tech would help the IS but it really didn't, not to any useful degree. LFE is half the advantages of CXL with 100% of the benefits. None of the rest of it really makes up for anything. RACs and MRMs are, at absolute best, niche weapons that add no real strategic value and all the IS ER lasers are just flat out inferior to their Clan counterparts. DHS, Endo, FF, CXL, all that stuff is still flat out clearly better for Clans. If I'm doing 20pts more damage per trigger pull an extra 6 or 10 structure on a side torso doesn't even come close to making up for that.

The only reason mercs were able to roll Clans back is that prior to all the mercs going loyalist to farm LP, Clan pugs and loyalists are probably the single tiniest segment of the game. If there had just be an equal number of Clan loyalists to mercs the mercs in IS probably could not have rolled Clans back like that, even with the skill advantage. The tech advantage is real and the IS pugs will literally actively do stuff to lose instead of coordinate most the time.

[MischiefSC]

CK16, on 16 October 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

Are you going to tell me that the Super Nova being 50% of the Assaults used is mathematically pointing to it being the best Assault in game?

Or the Summoner over 50% making it the go to premium heavy in game?

NO they are niche choices for what they desired! The WC numbers are not the only numbers to go off of. The ACH and HBK might be a stronger argument maybe I will agree. But the numbers for Assaults and Heavys? Not so much....Considering the MAD IIC is the go to assault by many players standards, yet is still not the most used behind the SNV?

If you removed poptarting and the Summoner and the SNV from the game, it would fall back to EBJ/HBR and MAD IIC MC MKII. IS heavies and assaults are so far down the list you'd all but need to remove Clans before they would be a significant piece of that puzzle. SNV and SMN are niche; no question. However if you eliminate those niches the default is in no way, shape or form an IS mech for any of those weight classes. The point is that those niches are useful in comp and there's no IS mech to fill those niches either.

Edited by MischiefSC, 16 October 2017 - 08:26 AM.

[CK16]

Yea true but a TBR or Night Gyr really doesn't fit the PPC poptarts either like the Summoner.

For IS closest imo would maybe be Quickdraw or Grasshopper (maybeeee?) Thanatos might be there as well but yes nothing currently stands out like the Summoner does lol.

Oddly enough I would like to see IS PPC's in use more. Tired of both sides laser vomits being at the Alpha numbers they have ect. Personally muc prefer Gauss vomit if anything, but even my DS isn't the best "meta" build for it, going with 6 ER Meds and 3 jj's with the Gauss.(But has gotten me a few good positions that most 90t's couldn't get to, heck even more heavies do go where I go in an assault lol.

Edited by CK16, 16 October 2017 - 08:41 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 16 October 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

Also that IS pugs were some of the most bitter, defeatist, unenjoyable people you could ever end up playing with as a given rule. Some I'm certain are great folks but the vast majority were just miserable, inflexible, antisocial and so bitter they could get banned while posting on 4Chan.

Every time I play FW as Clans against some PUGs there's always a few IS players going on about how drunk they are right now, how a mist lynx destroyed their atlas, or how someone oneshotted them from 1000m with a flamer or other similar levels of hyperbole.

Having a team whine about how OP clans are after they rush your team with a bunch of streak boats really makes you not feel for the IS loyalists much.


Honestly though, only reason I really have to be on IS is being in a unit. My unit can run a 4 man in scouting and be pretty much unbeatable, though we don't have the active players to run 12 man teams for invasion, so we're forced to suffer being with PUGs who are drunk, running stock mechs or worse, and rarely coordinate. If I go Clans then my unit has a harder time in scouting as a 4 man if we actually come up against an IS 4 man team running oxides, javelins, assassins, bushwackers, or anything actually good, but we can still farm pugs pretty easily. In invasion as Clans I feel confident going out pugging, as all I remember of Clan pugs is people actually using the mics, coordinating, calling targets, moving as one, running good builds, and even having hope and putting up a good fight even when faced with an enemy 12 man instead of just giving up.

With all the +50% contract bonuses on the Clans its really easy to see why the Mercs wouldn't want to deal with IS.

[The Mysterious Fox]

CK16, on 16 October 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Yea true but a TBR or Night Gyr really doesn't fit the PPC poptarts either like the Summoner.

For IS closest imo would maybe be Quickdraw or Grasshopper (maybeeee?) Thanatos might be there as well but yes nothing currently stands out like the Summoner does lol.

Oddly enough I would like to see IS PPC's in use more. Tired of both sides laser vomits being at the Alpha numbers they have ect. Personally muc prefer Gauss vomit if anything, but even my DS isn't the best "meta" build for it, going with 6 ER Meds and 3 jj's with the Gauss.(But has gotten me a few good positions that most 90t's couldn't get to, heck even more heavies do go where I go in an assault lol.

i carry over my summoner playstyle over to the uziel fairly decently, theres definitely a disparity in weight but they both do ppc pop tarts really well