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Energy Weapon Patch Update.


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#1 Paul Inouye

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 12:02 PM

Concerning the Energy Weapon changes...

It is clear that there is an issue with Laser power and usage in MWO, a reality supported by observation, play, player feedback, and metric monitoring. Energy balance is something that is always being discussed in the community; we see it on a daily basis in the forums, in our direct feedback tickets, and in other community discussions. However, the changes originally outlined in the Patch Notes for October 17th and informed by feedback and monitoring were far too wide-ranging, with very significant deltas in their values. It is because of your resulting feedback and our own internal discussions that we are now scaling back those originally-planned energy weapon changes.

*Please note that this rollback ONLY pertains to the laser energy weapon changes made to small and large lasers. The medium lasers are still going to be addressed but on a much reduced scale. Ballistic/Missile balance changes will still move forward as mentioned in the patch notes.

Our main goal with this balance pass was to initially target Medium Lasers in terms of their use and effectiveness in the mid-range ‘Laser vomit’ builds currently being fielded. At this point our focus isn’t about targeting Alpha Strike capabilities specifically, but the overall usage of Medium Lasers when comparing them as a 1-ton weapon versus heavier weapons in the same class. For example, comparing 3 ER Medium lasers against a single Large Pulse Laser shows a significant imbalance when compared ton-for-ton when looking at weapons of relative range and damage profiles.

In our investigation into possible solutions, we found that it was necessary to also address the DPS situation with the other Laser weaponry as part-and-parcel with the ML changes. This caused a domino effect resulting in what essentially amounted to a global Energy weapon nerf. While serious and continued considerations for Energy and weapon balance are needed, the manner in which this particular balance pass was structured and presented was not the ideal approach. This was a case of too many changes, of too great a significance, happening all at once.

While we are still aiming to address Medium Laser balance in this patch, the changes you’ll see in the October patch are with a much smaller delta than previously outlined in the original Patch Notes. The changes do still impact Cooldown. When evaluating these changes however, it should be noted that Duration should always be kept in mind when doing any calculations on the changes proposed. (Total laser Cooldown is a sum of Cooldown and Duration. The Cooldown timer does not begin until the end of the laser Duration. e.g. a Medium laser's Duration is 0.9 seconds and has a 3.5 second Cooldown. That is a total re-fire time of 4.4 seconds.)

Medium Laser
  • Cooldown Increased to 3.5 (from 3.0)
ER Medium Laser
  • Cooldown Increased to 4 (from 3.35)
Clan ER Medium Laser
  • Cooldown Increased to 4.5 (from 3.75)
Clan Heavy Medium Laser
  • Cooldown Increased to 5.5 (from 5.0)
As usual, we will be monitoring the effects of this change. We would also like to stress now that any potential additional changes that may be required for any other weapons will first be pushed into a public test build for which you will be able to provide your feedback prior to any change going live. I will be working directly with Chris and other devs internally to schedule and document these changes for you in the future.


The Grasshopper quirk changes...

The changes to the GHR-5H, GHR-5HC and GHR-5P were being made in anticipation of the original, global Energy change originally outlined the Patch Notes. As a result of the adjustments outlined above, we will not be going forward with those Grasshopper Quirk changes in the October patch.

#2 Big Tin Man

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:08 PM

Thanks for backing off the nerf hammer. Nerfs are needed to laser vomit, but I think the high alpha heavy clan lasers are the biggest offenders. 7 energy hardpoints with that ability to spew out an 80+ point alpha and then hide and cool... that ain't right.

Also, my grasshopper thanks you.

#3 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:12 PM

Thanks for the update! Spreading the news...

#4 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:13 PM

Thanks for listening, but I still believe the actual way to balance the high alpha vomit is to start tapping down weapon damages (read: slightly reducing) to get closer to the trade off between other dakka/burst DPS type builds, so there is more of a decision there. Cooldown changes literally just make high alpha builds run cooler and don't address the crux of the issue, which is that the damage output is a bit too high, especially on the Clan side (sorry guys, I love my Clan giga-alpha builds too, but there is a reason why the IS is completely outclassed in that role).

Maybe time to start tapping down damage values by 0.5 damage or so, tops?

#5 RjBass3

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:16 PM

C-HLL cool down doesn't really need to be increased. As it is, with it's very long beam time, plus it's long cool down time, many people opt to not use it and instead go with C-LPL's. While I have grown accustomed to it's current state of play and like them, an increase to their cool down time will most likely make this new weapon a relic seldom seen going forward.

For as much damage as it does, and as much heat as it creates, I really thought you guys did a nice job with it's balancing on the first pass. Again, in my personal opinion, I don't feel it needs to be adjusted. But that's just me.

#6 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:18 PM

Thank you for the changes. DPS can be addressed with lengthened cooldown, longer duration or decreased damage or increased heat. Using cooldown takes the control out of the players hands. It is never fun not to be able to fire your weapons when you need them. That is what the UAC jam increases and increased jam duration did. That is also what the significantly increased laser cooldown did. There are just better ways to achieve the goal as stated.

Lower the damage of the Clan Heavy lasers. Back off on the range of the erML like they were before so they do not sync with the Heavy LL as well. Do whatever you need to to get Laser Vomit under control and get Medium lasers in line but please do not make it so we cannot fire our weapons when we are in brawl or skirmish range.

Thank you for backing these changes off a bit but just to be clear, I would prefer a different solution using a parameter other than increased cooldown.

Edited by Rampage, 16 October 2017 - 02:20 PM.


#7 Drunk Canuck

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:21 PM

And it's still clear that these changes won't actually fix why laser vomit is so strong. But nice trying PGI, better than doing nothing.

View PostRjBass3, on 16 October 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

C-HLL cool down doesn't really need to be increased. As it is, with it's very long beam time, plus it's long cool down time, many people opt to not use it and instead go with C-LPL's. While I have grown accustomed to it's current state of play and like them, an increase to their cool down time will most likely make this new weapon a relic seldom seen going forward.

For as much damage as it does, and as much heat as it creates, I really thought you guys did a nice job with it's balancing on the first pass. Again, in my personal opinion, I don't feel it needs to be adjusted. But that's just me.


There is nothing wrong with the HLL as it stands. It's limited range, beam duration and cooldown were probably the most balanced of any weapon to put out such high damage.

#8 Kiiyor

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:22 PM

Hmmm... part of me is sad to see this go. I was looking forward to seeing how the meta shifted once all the knee jerk reactions were done with.

Still, this bit gives me hope:

View PostPaul Inouye, on 16 October 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

Our main goal with this balance pass was to initially target Medium Lasers in terms of their use and effectiveness in the mid-range ‘Laser vomit’ builds currently being fielded. At this point our focus isn’t about targeting Alpha Strike capabilities specifically, but the overall usage of Medium Lasers when comparing them as a 1-ton weapon versus heavier weapons in the same class.


Sounds like Alpha strikes are going to be examined further down the track.

#9 Mcgral18

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:23 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 16 October 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Maybe time to start tapping down damage values by 0.5 damage or so, tops?


Or 3, or 6
In regards to Pulse Lasers...we could get those DPS lasers


Medium lasers, yes, 0.5-1 damage would be a nice start
Heavy LL? That could stand to go down 3, with other appropriate changes

That's ~10 damage off the LOLpha for no effort

#10 suffocater

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:24 PM

My Gargoyle is stil sad, but this sounds overall much more reasonable. Also, from this point you can much better adjust the further directions of changes. The initial changes were just a little bit too much as one step. Thx for listening, reacting and taking a more careful step.

#11 Tiewolf

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:25 PM

Thx for the response and the reaction. You are right that lasers are overperforming but cooldown is the wrong way. The hardpoint inflation caused the problem in the first place and the massiv alphas are the problem not the dps.

Edited by Tiewolf, 16 October 2017 - 01:41 PM.


#12 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:30 PM

Thank you for listening to our feedback. If you want to try and address laser vomit as a whole, you need to lower the heat cap again, it never should have been increased months ago, which is why laser vomit became so prominent again. Increasing cooldown hurts mixed builds more than boats, so you worsen the disparity between the two.

#13 Nema Nabojiv

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:34 PM

So CERML still gets longer cooldown than ac20 and ISERML gets the same cooldown as said ac20? Surely it will help many lights and mediums to be more viable, much wow.
And very competitive lurms and artemis still getting nerfhammered?

Can you just rollback everything except the new mechs and we all pretend it never happened?

PS quick self correction, I realized I like the dakka velocity part, so please rollback everything but new mechs and dakka velocity, thank you :)

Edited by Nema Nabojiv, 16 October 2017 - 01:37 PM.


#14 Destructicus

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:39 PM

The issue is not burn time, damage ,heat or cool downs.

The issue is range.

Why brawl and expose yourself when you can peek for 10 minutes?
why risk death when you can spend all game popping off your laser vom alpha from across the map and gather 700+ damage while your team is actually doing all the work.

Not saying snipers don't have a place, just saying blanket nerfs like this force people to boat since carrying only 1 or 2 lasers isn't really going to do a whole lot of good.

Edited by Destructicus, 16 October 2017 - 01:43 PM.


#15 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:40 PM

Also gotta say, after seeing how hot those UAC5s are on the Nightstar preview... that 1.66 heat is a little much.

#16 Malakie

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:43 PM

Another way to see what the imbalance has caused is in the faction game play... Innersphere pretty much is on the losing end 95% of the time.

When I can stand toe to toe with my Atlas, max armor, max weapons and heat sink with a medium mech and it just ******* away without effort, it becomes clear there is an imbalance.

Getting hit with constant 80 points of damage while the other mech hides due to its speed and agility, does not make for fun game play in an Assault mech, trust me.

I DON'T want to see things nerfed completely but balance I do hope to see so that our skill actually becomes more of a needed thing to win than a luck thing.

While I am no where near being a top player, it is frustrating to have 5 kills in a match only to get taken down by someone that can hammer you and hide without taking hardly any damage in return.

#17 Brain Cancer

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:43 PM

Quote

*Please note that this rollback ONLY pertains to the laser energy weapon changes made to small and large lasers. The medium lasers are still going to be addressed but on a much reduced scale. Ballistic/Missile balance changes will still move forward as mentioned in the patch notes.



I am still wondering where you found an LRM or ATM launcher that could get most of it's missiles into one location, in order to justify the Artemis nerf. Meanwhile, the local SRM boat is still blaring victory horns as it slamdunks a few dozen missiles into one spot, Artemis be damned.

#18 mistlynx4life

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:44 PM

I do appreciate that PGI isn't unwilling to respond to concerns or admit a mistake, but I'm also a casual player who doesn't usually understand the implications of constantly-shifting nerfs and buffs.

#19 Mcgral18

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:47 PM

View PostMalakie, on 16 October 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

Another way to see what the imbalance has caused is in the faction game play... Innersphere pretty much is on the losing end 95% of the time.

When I can stand toe to toe with my Atlas, max armor, max weapons and heat sink with a medium mech and it just ******* away without effort, it becomes clear there is an imbalance.

Getting hit with constant 80 points of damage while the other mech hides due to its speed and agility, does not make for fun game play in an Assault mech, trust me.

I DON'T want to see things nerfed completely but balance I do hope to see so that our skill actually becomes more of a needed thing to win than a luck thing.

While I am no where near being a top player, it is frustrating to have 5 kills in a match only to get taken down by someone that can hammer you and hide without taking hardly any damage in return.


Just look at MWOWC for further evidence...

cERPPC and Clan Laservomit were solid performers
Posted Image

Sphere?
...not so much

#20 Big Tin Man

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:49 PM

View PostRjBass3, on 16 October 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

C-HLL cool down doesn't really need to be increased. As it is, with it's very long beam time, plus it's long cool down time, many people opt to not use it and instead go with C-LPL's. While I have grown accustomed to it's current state of play and like them, an increase to their cool down time will most likely make this new weapon a relic seldom seen going forward.

For as much damage as it does, and as much heat as it creates, I really thought you guys did a nice job with it's balancing on the first pass. Again, in my personal opinion, I don't feel it needs to be adjusted. But that's just me.


As an individual weapon, I agree that C-HLL is in a good place. The problem is when he brings his two brothers and 4 cousins (C-ERML, or C-HML), and doesn't trigger ghost heat. Big laser alpha is the problem. Hardpoint inflation got us here.

I know people hated energy draw, but that kind of system would be working to fix these issues. Maybe it's time to revisit it?





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