65 replies to this topic

[sceii]

I like idea to group all weapons of sinle type in one GH group.
But i'd also like to change GH a bit.
Now you can do 2atm12 or 3 atm9 but if you add atm12 to 2 atm9 GH kicks in.
It could be good if GH would not kick in with 2atm9 and 1 atm 12.
So with lasers we'll have 6ERML or 5ERML+1LL or 4ERML+2LL (with ll sharing GH with ERML)
Micro lasers will be useful that way, you could add a bit of damage to your 6ersmalls with 2ermicro lasers.

[Necro Ash]

ocular tb, on 17 October 2017 - 12:02 AM, said:

Couldn't we just use a lower heat cap instead? Wouldn't that accomplish something very similar without using an expansion of a convoluted mechanic that this community has wanted removed since it came out many years ago?

Exactly pointed out by quite a few people in this and other threads.

I suggested a 35 value as a cap. The amount of heat sinks has *NO EFFECT* on cap. The only thing that could raise it would be skills (max 15%, taking it to a whopping 40 yay). The only thing more heat sinks does is clear that 35 faster allowing a 'burst' again.

40 heat really isn't that much weaponry compared to current vomit based alphas.

2 HvyLgLsr + 5ErMed = 16+16+ (6.3 x 5) = 63.5, allowed currently but not with 35/40 cap.
1 HvyLgLsr + 3ErMed = 34.9 heat = allowed with 35 cap.

Problem solved, no ghost heat, no funky stats tweaking, provides a solid role for ballistic low heat weapons, and could lead to more interesting brawls where chain firing with a lot of heat dispersal changes the very nature of the "Splat, turn, Splat" fights.

Edited by Necro Ash, 17 October 2017 - 12:21 AM.

[Baba Yogi]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

Need to implement fixed heat ceiling. Heatsinks should only affect dissipation rate. Bam, no more incredibly huge alphas.

Gauss+Lasers already circumvent that while keeping the alpha. I think Energy Draw system needs to come back, but it should be seperate from heatscale unlike PTS. If you use more energy than you have, you should have catastrophic failure and shutdown instead of firing. That way you can actually balance all weapons in 1 pot.

Edited by Lordhammer, 17 October 2017 - 03:02 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

What is that 13 SPL? Not that anyone would probably do that lol, they would more likely slap 4 gauss and 4 LPL on Kodiaks or somesuch.

[sceii]

Necro Ash, on 17 October 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

I suggested a 35 value as a cap

Let's do math
With 0.4 dissipation DHS with clantech you can easily go for 8-12 dissipation per second(20 to 30 dhs). Single heavy large generates 2.14 heat per second and you can alpha 2 heavy larges with 35 cap(you do 18 heat in 1.55 seconds) with quirks you can sustain 6 hll on constant cooldown, maning you can sustain 15 DPS without overheating.
Do you want to live in a world where clan assaults do 4.55 secon bursts of 108 damage with 2 second cd?

Edited by sceii, 17 October 2017 - 12:59 AM.

[Lily from animove]

No, it's time to throw away ghost heat and make a proepr heattreshold preventing alpha vomits. GH is just an artificial treshold reduction that people can circumvent and then make pseudoalphas by volley firing groups. So GH does not solve any issues at all.

sceii, on 17 October 2017 - 12:59 AM, said:

Let's do math
With 0.4 dissipation DHS with clantech you can easily go for 8-12 dissipation per second(20 to 30 dhs). Single heavy large generates 2.14 heat per second and you can alpha 2 heavy larges with 35 cap(you do 18 heat in 1.55 seconds) with quirks you can sustain 6 hll on constant cooldown, maning you can sustain 15 DPS without overheating.
Do you want to live in a world where clan assaults do 4.55 secon bursts of 108 damage with 2 second cd?

the current damage vallues allow more than those 108 damage within 4.55 seconds if you build the right volley builds. So whats the issues with that? if you wanna sustain those lasers you will have 100% pure facetime instea dof the old poke voley to safety and get more spikedamage out of your build. Further a dakkawolf has similar or even more dps (but heatless), So your example isn't even as extreme as you make it sound like.
But I would still be for a 30heat cap to prevent dualerppcs and (heavy) gauss to be shot together.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 October 2017 - 01:42 AM.

[sceii]

Lily from animove, on 17 October 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

the current damage vallues allow more than those 108 damage within 4.55 seconds if you build the right volley builds. So whats the issues with that? if you wanna sustain those lasers you will have 100% pure facetime instea dof the old poke voley to safety and get more spikedamage out of your build. Further a dakkawolf has similar or even more dps (but heatless), So your example isn't even as extreme as you make it sound like.
But I would still be for a 30heat cap to prevent dualerppcs and (heavy) gauss to be shot together.

Dakkabuilds now have not so high heat efficiency, usually 3 damage to 1 heat, they're also usually limited to 15 dhs, sometimes 20 dhs.
With 20 DHS your heat dissipation rate is 3.5 heat/sec so it's 10.5 without taking jamming into account.
Why would anyone take ballistic if heavy lasers will be better at staring?
Non energy weapons will become a thing only for those who already used all slots for DHS and still have spare tonnage.

[General Solo]

@OP

NO

torso twist dude

[Lily from animove]

sceii, on 17 October 2017 - 01:54 AM, said:

Dakkabuilds now have not so high heat efficiency, usually 3 damage to 1 heat, they're also usually limited to 15 dhs, sometimes 20 dhs.
With 20 DHS your heat dissipation rate is 3.5 heat/sec so it's 10.5 without taking jamming into account.
Why would anyone take ballistic if heavy lasers will be better at staring?
Non energy weapons will become a thing only for those who already used all slots for DHS and still have spare tonnage.

because youc an alpha ac 5's andmake 20PP damage or 30 even on 6Ac5 builds so it's spreadless Pinpoint damage. Also your sudden calculation about heat changes, you previously spoke of 0,4 dissipation per DHS. how is your heat dissipation now sio different from your previous example?

so how are you now calculating dissipation? can you please compare those builds with the same dissipation rules, you seem to mess a few things up.

[Jay Leon Hart]

sceii, on 17 October 2017 - 12:59 AM, said:

Let's do math
With 0.4 dissipation DHS with clantech you can easily go for 8-12 dissipation per second(20 to 30 dhs). Single heavy large generates 2.14 heat per second and you can alpha 2 heavy larges with 35 cap(you do 18 heat in 1.55 seconds) with quirks you can sustain 6 hll on constant cooldown, maning you can sustain 15 DPS without overheating.
Do you want to live in a world where clan assaults do 4.55 secon bursts of 108 damage with 2 second cd?

Just need to point out, with 6 HLLS the most DHS you can have is 27 in an under armoured, STD everything SNV.

[Edit] Well, 28 DHS if you strip half the armour [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 17 October 2017 - 04:14 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

Dakota1000, on 16 October 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

I don't see why ghost heat is really needed. The lasers already run to the breaking point on heat anyway if we're talking the high alpha builds with 6ERML+2HLL. The build could be completely destroyed just by increasing the heat per shot on the lasers a bit, though I don't really think it needs that done to it.

It already runs super hot and it already has a very long duration. I'd really just recommend increasing the torso twist speed on all mechs to allow for people to take advantage of the long duration of high alpha strikes.

Laser vomit builds run as cool as non-laser vomit builds because you can cram more DHS into the mech. If they were "hot" people wouldnt be taking laser vomit to hot maps (which they do all the time) or they would be underperforming since they would be sub optimal builds (which they arent).

9 MPL EBJ has roughly the same time to cool as a 4 mpl/1 UAC 20 EBJ for example.

[General Solo]

hEAVY lasors are like lerms

Work best on non high level pilots

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 16 October 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

Suddenly, Gauss Rifles everywhere.

Lordhammer, on 17 October 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

Gauss+Lasers already circumvent that while keeping the alpha.

Gauss can be checked by simply reducing its damage. IMO Clan Gauss by all means should do 12 damage, as it weighs only 12 tons. Perhaps buff other aspects in exchange. Gauss damage can be further reduced until it hits an equilibrium, post heat ceiling implementation. Simple.

PGI had already fiddled with energy and missile damage values for balance. It is high time for them to man up and change ballistic damage values as well. For balance.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 October 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

El Bandito, on 17 October 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

PGI had already fiddled with energy and missile damage values for balance. It is high time for them to man up and change ballistic damage values as well. For balance.

Pretty much this. They also changed IS SRM damage, so start with LBX, then Clan Gauss & LGauss, then see how that works out.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

Need to implement fixed heat ceiling. Heatsinks should only affect dissipation rate. Bam, no more incredibly huge alphas.

Say hello to masses of gauss rifles.

[Mystere]

slide, on 16 October 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

Perhaps, but Gauss Rifles have been an outlier in every form of this game to date and quite frankly deserve their own solution no matter what is done.

In any event it isn't single weapons systems that are the problem, it is the ability to turn any weapon into a super weapon simply by mounting multiples of them. Every thing PGI has tried to date, ghost heat, cooldowns, more heat etc etc, just forces people to use the next least worst option. If you can't link 6ppc's then find a mech that can mount 2 PPC's and 2 Guass rifles or what ever is next in the least worst equation, this will go on and on until we are basically forced to chain fire everything.

So perhaps instead of trying to individually nerf every possible combination of super weapon we do something different. Let people make a choice, let them mount whatever they wan't, but if they fire everything, then they are going to pay a price. Either they blow up (in the extreme) or they suffer some other issue. Or perhaps fire your weapons in a more sustainable way and stay in the fight.

Unfortunately, much of this player base has a very strong allergic reaction to any hint of stun locks or crowd control. These, allegedly, are not “skillful” and are just plain cheap. <rolls eyes a million times>

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 17 October 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

Gauss can be checked by simply reducing its damage. IMO Clan Gauss by all means should do 12 damage, as it weighs only 12 tons. Perhaps buff other aspects in exchange. Gauss damage can be further reduced until it hits an equilibrium, post heat ceiling implementation. Simple.

PGI had already fiddled with energy and missile damage values for balance. It is high time for them to man up and change ballistic damage values as well. For balance.

How about we stop dancing around the real issue instead of nerfing damage? You know, the reason that Gauss is always combined with high heat weapons? The fact it has practically no heat for the damage. That is the entire reasons Gauss STILL has a foothold in the meta despite all the attempted nerfs against it (charge-up, explosive, long cooldown, etc).

Mystere, on 17 October 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

Unfortunately, much of this player base has a very strong allergic reaction to any hint of stun locks or crowd control.

The allergy has nothing to do with "skillful" and everything to do with bad gameplay, at least for stun locks.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mystere, on 17 October 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

Unfortunately, much of this player base has a very strong allergic reaction to any hint of stun locks or crowd control. These, allegedly, are not “skillful” and are just plain cheap. <rolls eyes a million times>

How would you suggest they implement CC into MWO?

*Tried to make a list of CC abilities, there's just so many to choose from and they differ from game to game*

[Mystere]

Jay Leon Hart, on 17 October 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

How would you suggest they implement CC into MWO?

*Tried to make a list of CC abilities, there's just so many to choose from and they differ from game to game*

Smoke/chaff screens, radar distortions, EMP effects, IFF only with locks, HUD distortions, crippling artillery and air strikes, mines, inferno/napalm-based ordinance, weapon and equipment performance degradation due to high heat — I can go on and on but these will do.

Edited by Mystere, 17 October 2017 - 08:45 AM.

[Daurock]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 October 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

How about we stop dancing around the real issue instead of nerfing damage? You know, the reason that Gauss is always combined with high heat weapons? The fact it has practically no heat for the damage. That is the entire reasons Gauss STILL has a foothold in the meta despite all the attempted nerfs against it (charge-up, explosive, long cooldown, etc).


The allergy has nothing to do with "skillful" and everything to do with bad gameplay, at least for stun locks.

Yes, Gauss acts as an "Exclamation Point" on just about any build out there. I'm actually OK with that, assuming 2 things - 1: It is otherwise less than ideal for the tonnage, and 2: It doesn't push alphas into the "Ridiculous" catoregory.
Currently, I'm on the fence for condition 1, but it does have the current tendency to push the alphas way past healthy levels.

Back to lasers though - I think that adding lasers to a single bucket would generally be a good thing - 1st, it'd drop some of the bigger laser vomit alphas out there. Dropping the deathstrike to a 2 bucket (Gauss, lasers) limit instead of 3 (Gauss, LL, ML) makes it more manageable. Couple that with a bit of tinkering with how far you can go with some individual lasers (clan erMLs could stand to drop their limit by 1, and isLL could probably do with an extra laser in the pack) and you've put a much more even handle on how far laser builds can go.

Keep in mind, that a single ghost heat bucket doesn't prevent making a build that can still Burst incredibly hard. Nothing is preventing someone from making a 10-12 erML laser boat that volleys just as hard as the laser vomits now do. (And as a side note, it even would have a similar burn time if timed well.). Volley fire isn't something to be feared for a burst mech. It's just a skill to be learned, and something the game should be encouraged instead of attempting to get around by avoiding via mechlab.