78 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Excalabur50, on 16 October 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

In EVERY SINGLE TOURNAMENT they don't stand a chance whatsoever so what bloody difference does it make, there has to be a way to make it fairer and easier for everyone to have a chance at winning the major prize not just clanners all the time!
Hell then the clanners sit there scratching their testicles going we don't have anyone to play against, yeah no wonder

15% of the mechs in the tournament were IS. If we go fully to lore it will be 0%. That's the difference. If you care for IS winning why do you suggest we nerf them into the stone age by making them the space barbarians they are in lore? Like just go and suggest something like lowering cooldowns and heat on IS weaponry, giving IS more structure and armor quirks, solidifying IS's role in this game by making them the tanky DPS team compared to Clan being a glass cannon team.

[Novakaine]

Well I've stopped and closed the Nova wallet also.
Events and FW why bother.

Nightbird, on 16 October 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

90% are already boycotting this event... nothing new

Make that 92.6%

[Excalabur50]

I never said to nerf the IS mechs at all,what I said was part of the way PGI could do it is lessen the amount of clan mechs which in turn will help to negate some of their overwhelming firepower without taking the nerf bat to everything, the reason no one plays IS it clanner tech is easy street and why would you want to play on the losing side all the time

Edited by Excalabur50, 16 October 2017 - 08:47 PM.

[Lances107]

Op You need to learn faction war, and you need to learn both sides of the pipeline as it were. First thing to learn is loyalist do not control the faction warfare. Who wins or who loses is dependent on where the top big merc units put themselves. Has very little to do with anything else. If your upset the IS is losing I suggest you take it up with the leaders of the merc units that contracted with the clans. Instead of doing the sheep move of its PGI ITS PGI they favor clans.

As for balance. Clans maintain the edge of heavy firepower, the only area we lose out on is the ER large lasers due to duration. We also have several mechs with solid speed. Our weaknesses include lack of durability, our right/left torsos, and heat. You want to cripple clan mechs fast, take out one of there right/left torsos. I suggest you try to contact one of the top merc units to teach you how. Some of them are so good, you so much as stick your head out for a few seconds, and your side torso is carved out like a turkey. IS maintain a much higher survival ability, lower heat, and a heavy amount of quirks that can be lined up with builds for increased firepower.

Now connect the dots. Each side has a edge that the other neutralizes. Clan heavy firepower, IS counter with heavy durability. Frankly off topic I am surprised the nerf heading the Annihilator's way in that department. I personally think that is a mistake. IS have low heat, but less crit space. Clan has Higher heat but more crit space. At this point you should start seeing a pattern.

Lastly I used to make the same mistakes you did, until one season I took part in faction war. Jade falcon was almost to Terra. We had carved a bloody swath threw Steiner territory. Two worlds from Terra. I was getting all excited, we were almost there. Over the weekend the merc units switched from clan Jade Falcon to the opposing IS side. Everything we had we lost. It was then I learned the hard truth of faction warfare. What the loyalist do, means nothing. The deciding factor is the merc units. Why Keep playing FW? I like the challenge of Full unit drops against each other, I like how the drop deck tonnage plays a huge role, and I like that you must keep up your best game not for just one round but for at least three rounds. Translation round meaning a mech being dropped.

[Blue Shadow]

Lances107, on 16 October 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

Op You need to learn faction war, and you need to learn both sides of the pipeline as it were. First thing to learn is loyalist do not control the faction warfare. Who wins or who loses is dependent on where the top big merc units put themselves. Has very little to do with anything else. If your upset the IS is losing I suggest you take it up with the leaders of the merc units that contracted with the clans. Instead of doing the sheep move of its PGI ITS PGI they favor clans.

As for balance. Clans maintain the edge of heavy firepower, the only area we lose out on is the ER large lasers due to duration. We also have several mechs with solid speed. Our weaknesses include lack of durability, our right/left torsos, and heat. You want to cripple clan mechs fast, take out one of there right/left torsos. I suggest you try to contact one of the top merc units to teach you how. Some of them are so good, you so much as stick your head out for a few seconds, and your side torso is carved out like a turkey. IS maintain a much higher survival ability, lower heat, and a heavy amount of quirks that can be lined up with builds for increased firepower.

Now connect the dots. Each side has a edge that the other neutralizes. Clan heavy firepower, IS counter with heavy durability. Frankly off topic I am surprised the nerf heading the Annihilator's way in that department. I personally think that is a mistake. IS have low heat, but less crit space. Clan has Higher heat but more crit space. At this point you should start seeing a pattern.

Lastly I used to make the same mistakes you did, until one season I took part in faction war. Jade falcon was almost to Terra. We had carved a bloody swath threw Steiner territory. Two worlds from Terra. I was getting all excited, we were almost there. Over the weekend the merc units switched from clan Jade Falcon to the opposing IS side. Everything we had we lost. It was then I learned the hard truth of faction warfare. What the loyalist do, means nothing. The deciding factor is the merc units. Why Keep playing FW? I like the challenge of Full unit drops against each other, I like how the drop deck tonnage plays a huge role, and I like that you must keep up your best game not for just one round but for at least three rounds. Translation round meaning a mech being dropped.

^ This guy gets it. Spot on. Units are the ones deciding who wins in FW, I've watched it happen from both sides of the fence.

[Thorqemada]

Mech-Durability does not match Firepower bcs Mech-Duriability is a finite ressource and firepower an infinite ressource at fundamental Level (Laser + PPC never run out of Ammo).
Yet Mech-Durability is mixed and matched with Firepower which blurrs the picture makes it at times unrecognizable but the Clans are not Glasscannons enough and the IS not Tanky enough to achieve balance bcs you have to massively overweight Mech-Durability with lower Firepower to match Firepower with lower Mech-Durabitliy especially as Cover gives an Mech the ability to hide from incoming fire which makes the side with more firepower more powerful bcs they trade better while have the same "Cover-Durability" as their Counterparts.

Clans > IS !!!

Edited by Thorqemada, 16 October 2017 - 09:45 PM.

[Excalabur50]

So tell me this then why is it most people plan clan? Simple it's easy winnings that why mercs change to them and it wont change till things change so there will ALWAYS be imbalance and the game will die cause no one wants to play

[General Solo]

Not many people play FW and comp anyway

So we already have a boycott?

[50 50]

Excalabur50, on 16 October 2017 - 07:43 PM, said:

Well half the problem stems from the fact that they pick and choose what lore to uphold, as it is fine for clan tech to be much stronger than the IS as that is in fact what happened but where it breaks down is it shouldn't be 12 v 12 it was always more IS than clan mechs and that is where the balance can come from, which in turn can make thing easier for PGI to balance more effectively

That didn't even work in table top and we will not see uneven teams in the regular game modes in MWO.
Can always test it in Private Lobby though and that might be interesting.
Anyone want to organise an 8 v 5 and see what happens?

However, for Faction Play, has anyone considered reducing the Clan drop deck to 3 mechs?
Even as an option for players to take for some sort of incentive?

[MrMadguy]

I already ignore FW and tournaments due to this problem. Clan equipment weights half of IS one and takes half of slots, while having the same performance, and Clan 'Mechs can fit more heat sinks, "free" XL engine and usually have more hardpoints. This fact results in ability to create silly builds, like Mediums, having the same firepower, as IS Assaults, while having more mobility and survivability, and Assaults, that can literally one-shot any other 'Mech. No quirks can fix this imbalance.

Edited by MrMadguy, 16 October 2017 - 10:34 PM.

[Vellron2005]

Excalabur50, on 16 October 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

So it seems the only way to get PGI to listen is to do something extreme, so my suggestion is for IS players to boycott FW and any tournaments until the blinding imbalance with this game is sorted.

Battle for Luthien just like EVERY other tournament is a ROFL stomp in favour of clans. Hell even when battles that in lore are won by the IS it still goes to the clans.

And I think it's time for PGI to stop picking and choosing which parts of the TT lore they use and that which they don't use, it's a game that won't ever translate properly between the two so just make the game with the priority of being FUN FOR EVERYONE.
So IS pilots the only way this will truly be sorted is if we all take a stand and say enough is enough!

It's time to boycott these game modes till it's sorted and please lets try and keep all the discussion on this civil.
Thanks Ex.

I think instead of staging a boycott, one should look as to WHY this happens?

Why do the clans always stomp you?

Here are the reasons I see for this:

1) IS Pugs - I've witnessed first hand pugs so bad they shoot the door instead of the gen in siege.

2) Lack of player discipline - most people simply don't seem to understand that even the qp modes played in FP are played differently, and they just keep playing like they do in QP - so they lose.

3) Tech gap - even though the tech gap is smaller than ever, it still exists. The ONLY thing where it's evident is in the dropdeck tonages, favoring the IS..

4) Strategy - most IS pugs play for scores. Clans play for the win. I've literally had an IS pug tell me "just get your points, nobody cares about the o-gens".. It was a sad day for me.

5) Many people never play FP, so when a big event comes around, they have no idea how to play it, and play it all like skirmish.

6) Honor - Clans just love to pound on IS and change the lore. For Tukayyid, clans are the underdog, so we throw everything we've got into winning against the lore. IS doesn't care half as much.

7) Mercs - Many large merc groups switch to clans, so most of the good players go with them.

8) Lore is simply illogical - in lore, many big battles were won by IS against the clans because of clan hubris. They were won because "the bad guys had to lose, and there had to be a happy end". In the real world, the guys with more skill and better weapons win.. there is no superman that will stop them. No Comstar is coming to the rescue. No great bet between faction leaders. Just mech on mech.

So, as you can see, it's not so much about the tech gap, and there's no need for a boycott..

You guys need to change your attitudes, organize, and play FP more.

[Lupis Volk]

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

You guys need to change your attitudes, organize, and play FP more.

Never. Going. To. Happen!

[Black Ivan]

If enough population would boycott not only during normal times, but also during events, that would send a message

[Tiewolf]

Blue Shadow, on 16 October 2017 - 09:41 PM, said:

^ This guy gets it. Spot on. Units are the ones deciding who wins in FW, I've watched it happen from both sides of the fence.

If this is so spot on, then plz tell me why wins and units are not spread equal between IS & Clan cause that would happen if every side would be equal. The units would choose their side randomly but obviously they do not!
So there is another factor that attracts the units in the first place. Comp teams favor clantech when they can choose freely between IS&Clan, Clans wins every competition and hell i just have to look at my own mech statistics to see the difference between my clan&IS mechs.
But yeah its just the units, lack of IS playerskill, the weather in the inner sphere...just go on and fool yourself that there is no gigantic imbalance elephant standing in the room.

Edited by Tiewolf, 16 October 2017 - 11:49 PM.

[Tiewolf]

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

I think instead of staging a boycott, one should look as to WHY this happens?

Why do the clans always stomp you?

Here are the reasons I see for this:

1) IS Pugs - I've witnessed first hand pugs so bad they shoot the door instead of the gen in siege.

2) Lack of player discipline - most people simply don't seem to understand that even the qp modes played in FP are played differently, and they just keep playing like they do in QP - so they lose.

3) Tech gap - even though the tech gap is smaller than ever, it still exists. The ONLY thing where it's evident is in the dropdeck tonages, favoring the IS..

4) Strategy - most IS pugs play for scores. Clans play for the win. I've literally had an IS pug tell me "just get your points, nobody cares about the o-gens".. It was a sad day for me.

5) Many people never play FP, so when a big event comes around, they have no idea how to play it, and play it all like skirmish.

6) Honor - Clans just love to pound on IS and change the lore. For Tukayyid, clans are the underdog, so we throw everything we've got into winning against the lore. IS doesn't care half as much.

7) Mercs - Many large merc groups switch to clans, so most of the good players go with them.

8) Lore is simply illogical - in lore, many big battles were won by IS against the clans because of clan hubris. They were won because "the bad guys had to lose, and there had to be a happy end". In the real world, the guys with more skill and better weapons win.. there is no superman that will stop them. No Comstar is coming to the rescue. No great bet between faction leaders. Just mech on mech.

So, as you can see, it's not so much about the tech gap, and there's no need for a boycott..

You guys need to change your attitudes, organize, and play FP more.

1. I have witnessed Clan pugs that shoot the doors but managed to shoot the generators cause they had the reach and the enemy IS team didn`t so they couldn`t massacre them while trying to shoot the generators.

2. The same unit that stomp you on clan side 48:6 wins on IS side 48:34. Yeah they lack discipline immediately when playing on IS side cause thats the magic IS curse. Same with 4,5,6&7.

3. ...still dono what game you play?

8. This is actually a very valid point and you explain perfectly why clan allways wins in MWO.
Congratulations! Skill AND BETTER WEAPONS win! Just change lore to gamerules a.k.a. balance though and look at the maps that favour mainly only the clan advantages and you might have just felt out the tail of the gigantic imbalance elephant in the room you desperetly try to ignore.

Edited by Tiewolf, 17 October 2017 - 12:32 AM.

[Excalabur50]

Too true Tiewolf,

I've dropped many a time with IS loyalist in FW and still the clans ROFL stomp them so to blame it all on pugs just isn't right. There is a major disparity and clanners who enjoy always being on the winning side obviously don't want balance cause hell we wouldn't want to lose, so the game slowly dies a painful death and no one benefits

Edited by Excalabur50, 17 October 2017 - 12:25 AM.

[arcana75]

Excalabur50, on 16 October 2017 - 07:43 PM, said:

Well half the problem stems from the fact that they pick and choose what lore to uphold, as it is fine for clan tech to be much stronger than the IS as that is in fact what happened but where it breaks down is it shouldn't be 12 v 12 it was always more IS than clan mechs and that is where the balance can come from, which in turn can make thing easier for PGI to balance more effectively

Dakota1000, on 16 October 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

Clans are nerfed from their table top abilities compared to IS by a considerable margin. If we are also going by lore we'd have to remove quirks, remove ghost heat, remove ability for IS to customize their battlemechs, let omnimechs swap their loadout before any battle they drop into, buff all clan tech, nerf all IS tech, and then we'd send a couple stars of Clanners against 3 lances of IS mechs. While we are at it, only players above 1kdr can play Clan and anyone below that is forced to play IS to simulate that Clan pilots are vat born super soldier elites compared to the IS.

There's a reason we have to pick and choose which parts of the lore to follow, otherwise the IS wouldn't stand a chance what so ever.

The moment PGI starts to pick and choose which things to be lore-accurate and which to ignore, the game ceases to be anything to do with BattleTech. Then PGI should just stop worrying about being lore-INaccurate, and just focus on making a FUN GAME.

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

I think instead of staging a boycott, one should look as to WHY this happens?

Why do the clans always stomp you?

Here are the reasons I see for this:

1) IS Pugs - I've witnessed first hand pugs so bad they shoot the door instead of the gen in siege.

2) Lack of player discipline - most people simply don't seem to understand that even the qp modes played in FP are played differently, and they just keep playing like they do in QP - so they lose.

4) Strategy - most IS pugs play for scores. Clans play for the win. I've literally had an IS pug tell me "just get your points, nobody cares about the o-gens".. It was a sad day for me.

So most pugs and newbies who play Clan, magically become good, aren't noobs, know what to do, have player discipline and possess strategy eh? Come on man... Think abit harder before posting this kinda nonsense. There are stupid players with stupid mech builds in Clan, but they are in a padded safe environment and players can safely ignore it as matches are steamrolls anyway. The same stupid gameplay and stupid mech builds in IS, surface quickly cuz IS is a hostile mostly time-to-die-gloriously environment, so such behaviour gets called out fast.

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

3) Tech gap - even though the tech gap is smaller than ever, it still exists. The ONLY thing where it's evident is in the dropdeck tonages, favoring the IS..

Citing the tech gap is over-simplifying things. It's the usage of the tech gap to build mechs and employ strategy on maps that favour those strategies. The 25 ton disparity between IS and Clan drop decks is meaningless, when Clan mediums can alpha strike crazy amounts of pinpoint damage and repeat after cooling down. Meanwhile that assault mech that took the damage has finite armour and is not long for the world as he bravely walks slowly into the base walking his last green mile.

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

5) Many people never play FP, so when a big event comes around, they have no idea how to play it, and play it all like skirmish.

Indeed. There are people who have no idea how to play FP on both sides, both IS and Clan. But the clueless on Clan in FP have an easier ride. Much easier ride.

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

7) Mercs - Many large merc groups switch to clans, so most of the good players go with them.

This isn't a reason, it's an outcome. Why do large merc groups go clan? Answering that gives you the reason. It's not a mere coincidence the majority of mercs, tournament and QP mechs are Clan.

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

8) Lore is simply illogical - in lore, many big battles were won by IS against the clans because of clan hubris. They were won because "the bad guys had to lose, and there had to be a happy end". In the real world, the guys with more skill and better weapons win.. there is no superman that will stop them. No Comstar is coming to the rescue. No great bet between faction leaders. Just mech on mech.

Agree, lore makes for good story telling, but it doesn't cover game-balancing of any shape or form. It's like lore says Batman can beat Superman, but really... Superman would crush Batman any day at any time. As you said, the guy with the better skill AND weapons wins. You get the odd Kai Allard Liao here and there, but ultimately a modern infantry squad will crush a Roman Legion.

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

So, as you can see, it's not so much about the tech gap, and there's no need for a boycott..

Yep agree, boycotts are pointless esp for a videogame. It serves no real purpose, and you won't get the numbers needed for a proper effect of a boycott, since most people don't even visit forums. Not anymore. Boycotts and protests are dumb.

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

You guys need to change your attitudes, organize, and play FP more.

I'm gonna play more of it, once my IS contract expires. Then I'm going to stop being with a unit that keeps changing between Clan and IS, and stick with Clan. Or just play QP.

Vellron2005, on 16 October 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

6) Honor - Clans just love to pound on IS and change the lore. For Tukayyid, clans are the underdog, so we throw everything we've got into winning against the lore. IS doesn't care half as much.

IF large merc units are the true deciders of what happens in FW, then saying that IS somehow doesn't care as much, is a meaningless comment, since it doesn't matter who cares, as long as the mercs do. And the large merc units know what works and what doesn't, and do what's necessary, ie join Clan.

[Thorn Hallis]

I don't know, to me it seems PGI has given up on FW entirly.

[Lily from animove]

Dakota1000, on 16 October 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

I doubt there's any loyalists who play competitively, especially any IS loyalists.

A boycott of FW will only make it worse for IS, as the large segment of players on IS who are also the large segment driving it down are the completely new players with no knowledge of battletech who just buy the IS mechs because they are cheaper without understanding they have to upgrade them. They likely won't see this post here.

this, and whenever someone comes with a proepr idea to fix this, thats the fix for FW, but you cannot fix n00bs therefore no chance to fix FW. And given how many people even after hundreds of matches still bring crapbuilds, youc nanot even make an artifical entry border as people will even overcome it and keep derping. maybe FW is an unfeasable mode with the low pop of MWO since there are not enough skilled players to populate it at all.

[SeventhSL]

Lances107, on 16 October 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

Op You need to learn faction war, and you need to learn both sides of the pipeline as it were. First thing to learn is loyalist do not control the faction warfare. Who wins or who loses is dependent on where the top big merc units put themselves. Has very little to do with anything else. If your upset the IS is losing I suggest you take it up with the leaders of the merc units that contracted with the clans. Instead of doing the sheep move of its PGI ITS PGI they favor clans.

As for balance. Clans maintain the edge of heavy firepower, the only area we lose out on is the ER large lasers due to duration. We also have several mechs with solid speed. Our weaknesses include lack of durability, our right/left torsos, and heat. You want to cripple clan mechs fast, take out one of there right/left torsos. I suggest you try to contact one of the top merc units to teach you how. Some of them are so good, you so much as stick your head out for a few seconds, and your side torso is carved out like a turkey. IS maintain a much higher survival ability, lower heat, and a heavy amount of quirks that can be lined up with builds for increased firepower.

Now connect the dots. Each side has a edge that the other neutralizes. Clan heavy firepower, IS counter with heavy durability. Frankly off topic I am surprised the nerf heading the Annihilator's way in that department. I personally think that is a mistake. IS have low heat, but less crit space. Clan has Higher heat but more crit space. At this point you should start seeing a pattern.

Lastly I used to make the same mistakes you did, until one season I took part in faction war. Jade falcon was almost to Terra. We had carved a bloody swath threw Steiner territory. Two worlds from Terra. I was getting all excited, we were almost there. Over the weekend the merc units switched from clan Jade Falcon to the opposing IS side. Everything we had we lost. It was then I learned the hard truth of faction warfare. What the loyalist do, means nothing. The deciding factor is the merc units. Why Keep playing FW? I like the challenge of Full unit drops against each other, I like how the drop deck tonnage plays a huge role, and I like that you must keep up your best game not for just one round but for at least three rounds. Translation round meaning a mech being dropped.

That is basically spot on. While IS and Clan loyalists accuse PGI of favouring the other the key is in the name. It is mwoMERCS.com. It is not mwoCLAN.com or mwoIS.com. Not even just mwo.com. Big Merc units stacking one side have been the bane of CW since inception and the reason it is a relatively dead game mode.

They could instigate a decent contract mini game for Mercs that would be fun for them and provide opportunity to back stab each other for CB/MC. The advantage being that their distribution could be controlled via the contracts. Instead they can tag planets and still get big payoffs for contracting with Clan dispite the state of the faction map. The FW system and MERCs are just broken.

Edited by SeventhSL, 17 October 2017 - 02:01 AM.