16 replies to this topic

[Marquis De Lafayette]

The tug-of war bar....or more precisely...the end point of the tug-of-war bar.
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First of all let me say, the IS did what it needed to do given the system PGI has given us with the tug-of-war. So, no hard feelings towards the IS pilots who pushed at the end to force the tie. We would have done the same to try to deny the IS victory if the shoe was on the other foot...so o7 to you guys. IS pilots should raise a glass to those who fought to the end to save Luthien. Kudos...

The point of this is to note the flaw in the tug-of-war system, particularly with events like this.

The fact is that no IS unit denied more +1% ticks to the Clan than the end point of the tug-of-war bar did. The Clans were maxed to the end on that bar a lot....so, many wins netted +0%. No gain. MVP...MVP....MVP!!

Without the end of the bar providing this backstop, a last phase run to obtain a draw would have proven nearly impossible. The Clan lead would likely have been too great to overcome.

The big problem of having a maximum in an event (vs. normal phase ends) like this is that it makes the last timezone of the event the one that really matters and thus makes 2/3 of the playerbase less relevant. NA players getting Clans maxed last night was irrelevant as they couldn't build the lead beyond the max allowed by PGI's bar. Plus, most of us have jobs to go to during certain hours. We can't really take the day off to push on Luthien in the final hours....sorry.

I know PGI might fear that letting all the Clan wins during the event count for +1% might make the final hours less exciting....as the Clans would have built an additional significant cushion. (I would love to see the final w/l stats) However, as is it makes the early days of these events nearly irrelevant. After all, why put in the extra hours to push the bar to max, if it will be settled by the last timezone, the last day...while you sleep. If PGI was really concerned about last day activity...just add a reward for last day activity....problem solved

I will close with an analogy. Imagine a soccer game where the rules never allowed a team to get more than 2 goals ahead...no matter how many they put in the opponents goal. It would take some doing, but such a game could be flipped to a draw in the last 3 minutes. Is credit due to the other team for force by a draw in the final minutes?...certainly. However, if your had really scored 5 goals first (but only 2 counted due to the rule) credit is also due to the folks who made the 2 goal lead rule....which I think any soccer fan would think stupid. The sequence of goals (wins) shouldn't determine the outcome...just the number of them.
The sequence of wins (IS's coming more in the last hours) likely mattered far more than the number of wins or w/l in this event. Not the best way to determine events...

[Bombast]

I salute anyone that suffers FW for loot. You poor mechwarriors...

Anyway, two things in regard to the bar...

1. I don't think PGI did this on purpose
2. If I was planning this, my fix to this sort of thing would have been to make each day its own 'event.' At the end, whoever won the most days wins. Would prevent the last minute timezone push, while still keeping one side from frontloading wins and ending the event 24 hours in. Would also probably be less demoralizing, and counting 'days' probably makes for a better rallying cry than counting raw wins. At least I think so.

[BrunoSSace]

Best thing is players will always find loop holes. Win or loss they were the options. So players decided to tie the event instead.
PPI 0 Players 1

[slide]

As someone who was there at the bitter end, I must say that the result is quite pleasing. There was much discussion among the group I was playing with as to whether getting the bar under the capture threshold would in fact count as a tie and there fore not as a loss for the IS. Seems we were right and the tactic of dunking objectives where possible was worth it in the end.

However let me clarify a couple of things others are making assumptions about (from other threads).

Euro 12 mans zerging a win at the end.
- This is simply untrue. The event ended at the end of the usual OC TZ. The result was made possible by 2 (that I know of) possibly 3, <12 man groups of players made up from a number of regular FP players on the IS side. No unit was represented in my group by more than 2 players. The only unit group I saw out of the 7-8 matches I played was a 6-7 man Clan unit (and they lost the 3 matches I played against them.
- by midnight my time (about 1.5 hours to the end) Our group was having to wait 5-8 minutes each match for a clan team to show up. This nullified any rapid dunking of objectives. It does however allow for the possibility that the IS ghosted a win or 2. It was painfully obvious that we were facing for the most part Clan pugs answering the call to arms.
-The fact is the event was decided by a relatively small number of players (on both sides), in this case the IS side had slightly greater numbers/skills/organisation with enough mojo to take a sure fire win away from the clans.

Kudos to all those I played with last night.

What this does highlight though is the utter futility of the ToW system. Having a whole cease fire or event decided by a few people right at the end, literally the last 2-3 hours (in the smallest participation zone on the planet) just makes the whole point of playing CW for planets another "why bother!" moment.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

slide, on 17 October 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Kudos to all those I played with last night.

What this does highlight though is the utter futility of the ToW system. Having a whole cease fire or event decided by a few people right at the end, literally the last 2-3 hours (in the smallest participation zone on the planet) just makes the whole point of playing CW for planets another &quot;why bother!&quot; moment.

Yep. I am taking nothing away from the players who "got it done" for the IS under the conditions/rules PGI had set.

Yes. it's a obviously a problem to use their phase tug-of-war system in a multi-day event...it made the result absurd, in that it nullified a gazillion Clan wins by putting a relatively few IS wins, in the right timezone...right at the end. If they show the win/loss numbers of both sides (for invasion) it could be comical. However, I expect them to include scouting in any numbers they release....so we can't see how many more wins the Clans really had in invasion. Which would have put the Clans way over the win threshold.

Again....IS pilots enjoy your earned draw. PGI you can do better for the next event

[Novakaine]

Dubious result at best based on past history.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Next time we just nuke the planet from orbit....

[Scythe Kagato]

Problem I see with the "tally the days won" would likely be a repeat of this scenario daily as the last time zone clocks in enough victories to manage a tie.

Special multi-day events should involve extending the TOW maximum or lowering the reward for each win so that more wins are required to max it out. Consequently, more wins would be needed to neutralize the other side's gains.

[Bombast]

Scythe Kagato, on 17 October 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

Problem I see with the "tally the days won" would likely be a repeat of this scenario daily as the last time zone clocks in enough victories to manage a tie.

Well, in a Day-by-Day system, I'd imagine the bar wouldn't be capped at 100 like it is now. Uncapped and reset every day.

Edited by Bombast, 17 October 2017 - 09:13 PM.

[Vellron2005]

The event system should be quite simpler - More overall wins - wins.

Number of wins should be the only thing counted.

If one side wins most of the matches, and the other side jsut wins the last few, its not a draw.. it's a win for the side that won most of the matches!

[drifter bob]

Vellron2005, on 18 October 2017 - 02:38 AM, said:

The event system should be quite simpler - More overall wins - wins.

Number of wins should be the only thing counted.

If one side wins most of the matches, and the other side jsut wins the last few, its not a draw.. it's a win for the side that won most of the matches!

while i agree the way this ended was silly doing it on most wins is not good either since after a certain point one side might have steamrolled the other so much that it would be impossible to win thus making the rest of the event pointless (well besides the rewards) for them

[Anhydrite]

MechWarrior5152251, on 17 October 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

Next time we just nuke the planet from orbit....

But what about Newt?

[Marquis De Lafayette]

drifter bob, on 18 October 2017 - 03:05 AM, said:

while i agree the way this ended was silly doing it on most wins is not good either since after a certain point one side might have steamrolled the other so much that it would be impossible to win thus making the rest of the event pointless (well besides the rewards) for them

The fundamental problems are how to make the whole event "relevant" and how to not favor the last timezone in terms of determining the outcome. PGI limiting the lead (either side can obtain) makes early days not matter (for either side actually)...PGI (with a potential change) not giving sides something to play for on day 3 can also be a problem....as participation could tank.

As is...PGI made it very easy for one side to wipe out days worth of dominance, just by ending in the one TZ where the IS showed any strength. You shouldn't be able to tank the event for days and win the last couple of hours and still pull off a "hold"....permanently denying a season win condition to the other side.

Guys in my unit (many who sunk hours in each day) are staring that they will just play the last day, if they do it this way again...if they bother to play. As that is all that matters as is...PGI can't want the first 2 days to be light, by making day 3 all that matters. Not good business...

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Based on PGI's numbers:

(IS total wins)7902 - (IS scouting wins) 7023 = 879 IS invasion wins

(Clan total wins) 7459 - (clan scouting wins) 6050 = 1409 Clan invasion wins

So Clans were + 530 for invasion

I believe the bar maxed out a +100...and obviously the Clans were only +70-something (I think...correct me if I am wrong) at the end...causing the tie.

Assuming all that to be correct: I can't see any math here that doesn't mean the end of the tug-of-war bar didn't keep 400+ wins from counting. MVP...MVP...

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 20 October 2017 - 05:02 PM.

[Rick T Dangerous]

MechWarrior5152251, on 17 October 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

Next time we just nuke the planet from orbit....

Wrong franchise, spacemarine.

[Bombast]

Rick T Dangerous, on 20 October 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

Wrong franchise, spacemarine.

It hasn't been unknown for a Smoke Jaguar to go a bit orbital bombardmenty when things don't go his way...

[Brain Cancer]

Rick T Dangerous, on 20 October 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

Wrong franchise, spacemarine.

Turtle Bay was infamous for being the first real Clan-era orbital bombardment, which might as well have been WMDs. Not quite a bit of the ol' Exterminatus, but you couldn't tell the population that.

Because they'd been glassed.