57 replies to this topic

[Black Ivan]

CW/FW was doomed from day one when PGI refused to seperate groups and solo players and implement any sort of working match maker. Decisions like Tug of War of Long Tom didn't help as well

[InvictusLee]

LordNothing, on 17 October 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

228

Speaking of the 228, I've only ever beaten them in a group play match, and only once.
Before and after they do a good job of kicking the crap out of me in FW.

[Lily from animove]

so what do you suggest?

if IS pugs, you can't change that.
if IS derps around, you can also nto change that.
And population isn't big enough at all.

of we had like 1 million players and like 10k online in FW eahc evening we could divide into casual FW (where results don't affect the map) and hardcore FW, which makes matches count. That would allow pugs to go into the casual and training mode while the people playing FW for what it is meant to be cabn go hardcore mode. But population doesn't makes this feasable.

I lerned somethign general about RVR based games, the side with less pop is also usually chosne by players accepting more challange and also forces this side to organise more. This often leads the side to perform better. And if we exclude the large merc swapping units. clanners are still a minority amongst the FW players.

Prof RJ Gumby, on 17 October 2017 - 11:16 PM, said:

This is the worst thing about FP, but it could easily be fixed.

Repeating myself for an Xth time:

Just introduce non-exploitable option to retreat/surrender. It could work like that:
- when one side lost over half of their mechs (24 deaths), and are loosing, they get the option to vote retreat (e.g. in the command menu). Other players from the loosing team get an info like "Prof RJ Gumby voted to retreat". Nothing changes at this point, the game goes on.
- if every not permadead/disco player votes to retreat, that side actually retreats - the match ends after the last living player votes to retreat. Other side wins and every living player from that side gets a little bonus xp and c-bills for every not killed enemy mech they "chased off".

Voila. Biggest frustration of FP just disappeared. No more need to drag the already won/lost matches on and on. No more need to look at your side getting stomped for 10 minutes. No more need to chase after every last enemy light running away or hiding in a corner.

Also, it would improve the 'feeling' and "war simulation" of the game - retreat is what military forces actually do to cut loses when the objective proves to be unachievable.

WIN/WIN in every aspect, as long as it's not exploitable, and I believe my solution largely isn't. It will even improve queue times, as players will not stay locked in matches that have actually ended, but still drag on because kill all is a must.

Only somehow PGI never thought of this and when I proposed it here it largely fell of deaf ears.

have you even considered the exploitable character of that setup? I guess not.

[Vellron2005]

John Archer, on 17 October 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

I just got out of a FW, (Faction Warfare), match. I now play on the Clan side. I figured I purchased enough Clan mechs over the years that I should probably play them. I digress. I just got out of a FW match where I was the PUG in a 10 person unit. The IS team was pretty much all PUGS. By the 2nd drop for most of the unit, it was stated over comms to push their spawn point. That, to me is a piss-poor way to play a game. They literally yanked the fun of playing away from the other team as they swarmed them and killed them in rapid succession. Something needs to be done about this. There are many casual gamers out ther, myself included, who play MWO for... fun. Getting swarmed as one spawns, and thus not getting the chance to play fully, is wrong and not very sporting. I stated on comms that I was not going to participate in attacking their spawn point. That's about all I could do. Oh and get this: The unit considers PUGS, 'Skittles'. Basically just cash cows I guess. The unit I dropped with stated, after I made my objection, that they just want to get the c-bills and quickly get on to the next match. Seriously??? Is this what this game has come to???

Oh dear young one..

Spawn camping used to be A LOT worse.. at least the dropship shoots 12 ERLLs now.. (Dropship MVP!), but yeah.. spawn camping is a really big problem that comp teams and big units take advantage of..

Especially on some maps, like Tourmaline, where you can climb a large rock and vomit large laser alphas at the fresh spawns and they have no chance to avoid fire, while well out of the dropship's reach..

This tactic was first employed heavily by the old Mercstar mercenary unit, and it was seen as dishonorable by most lore-based loyalists. (Like my own unit CWI, we never spawn camped in those days).

But then, things changed, those that cared about things like lore and honor either moved on, or got frustrated and left, and now we've got alot of players that only want to stomp and gather cbills..

Then you get big units and comp teams that treat FP as training, so you get 12-man premades seal clubbing pugs..

(Btw, the term "skittles" means it's non-organized groups and solo players, it's derived from all different and colorful faction logos, because all the different faction logos look like a colorful bag of skittles and is not meant to be derogatory - it could just as easily be "M&Ms").

PGI, sadly, has no answer to the problem of spawn camping - They tried and failed.

They raised walls around the spawns, and they made the dropships hover and shoot 12 ERLLs, but it's not enough.. People are not wounded enough, so they just torso-twist the lasers away, and keep camping..

[LordNothing]

November11th, on 17 October 2017 - 11:43 PM, said:

Speaking of the 228, I've only ever beaten them in a group play match, and only once.
Before and after they do a good job of kicking the crap out of me in FW.

the units all have their bad days and loose to a group of uncoordinated yet highly skilled pugs and many times i was on such a team. ive played this game enough to see things like this happen. its a rare unicorn and when you do find it you feel special.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 October 2017 - 02:28 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Vellron2005, on 18 October 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

Oh dear young one..

Spawn camping used to be A LOT worse.. at least the dropship shoots 12 ERLLs now.. (Dropship MVP!), but yeah.. spawn camping is a really big problem that comp teams and big units take advantage of..

Especially on some maps, like Tourmaline, where you can climb a large rock and vomit large laser alphas at the fresh spawns and they have no chance to avoid fire, while well out of the dropship's reach..

This tactic was first employed heavily by the old Mercstar mercenary unit, and it was seen as dishonorable by most lore-based loyalists. (Like my own unit CWI, we never spawn camped in those days).

But then, things changed, those that cared about things like lore and honor either moved on, or got frustrated and left, and now we've got alot of players that only want to stomp and gather cbills..

Then you get big units and comp teams that treat FP as training, so you get 12-man premades seal clubbing pugs..

(Btw, the term "skittles" means it's non-organized groups and solo players, it's derived from all different and colorful faction logos, because all the different faction logos look like a colorful bag of skittles and is not meant to be derogatory - it could just as easily be "M&Ms").

PGI, sadly, has no answer to the problem of spawn camping - They tried and failed.

They raised walls around the spawns, and they made the dropships hover and shoot 12 ERLLs, but it's not enough.. People are not wounded enough, so they just torso-twist the lasers away, and keep camping..

the issue with solutions to spawn campings is the other modes where most kills wins, if spawns get too strong, spawn camping for the defenders gets too much of an advantage again.

Dynamic dropzones may be a solution, but that would require bigger maps, and am not sure if it helps, because spawn camping happens when one team overhelms the other anyways.

[Jun Watarase]

The game was made to sell mechpacks, FP doesnt generate revenue directly so it gets a fraction of the attention that mechpacks do.

People wanted matchmaking in QP -> Seal clubbers whined every time that the game was about units vs pugs and kept flaming everyone who argued for a matchmaker -> PGI limited QP to 4 man teams and implemented a 8 man group queue -> units sync dropped to bypass the 4 man team limit because they wanted to club seals

It took years to get a matchmaker partly because some units threw a huge tantrum everytime it was brought up on the forum and kept yelling "join a unit! get on TS! buy a mic! this is a TEAM game!". When they finally got the group queue they wanted, they boycotted it because "theres nobody using it, its not OUR fault!".

Same thing happens everytime we want a matchmaker in FP. Some units throw a huge tantrum and start flaming everyone and yelling the same "get on TS!" stuff.

I've dropped in groups in FP and it does not really improve the experience. It is a complete waste of time when most of the enemy team fails to break 1k and we could probably win with 4 of our team afk. I dont see any point in clubbing seals. The pug vs pug matches during the FP event were amazing in comparison.

Ironically, the main reason why FP doesnt have a high population is because it doesnt have a matchmaker. Just like how QP used to be deserted till it got a matchmaker.

Put a matchmaker in and population will improve. We have to start from somewhere. Its like saying "oh we dont have money to make a good game so we made a bad game and since its bad, it doesnt sell and we dont have money to make a good game...". You start with a good game -> get money -> make improvements. You dont start with a bad game -> cant sell -> no money for improvements.

[Lykaon]

John Archer, on 17 October 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

Going against a pre-made is expected. Going against a pre-made that has the attitude that PUGS are just there to be farmed and have the mindset of, 'get this over with quickly so we can get our cbills and move on to do the same to the next match', is the worst type of game playing I have ever seen.

Funny thing is: the attitude of the pre-made that I witnessed is the very same thing that will cause casual players to NOT want to play in FP. They will end up just sitting there, in the searching for a match screen, forever (or until another pre-made decides to gather up and drop).

Ah well. I said my peace.

PUGS unite!

Conversely "getting it over with" is a kindness to the defeated Pugs. Wrapping up the win as fast as possible gives those puggies a chance to play another match that isn't premade vs "skittles" as quickly as possible.

What does dragging out the loss do? it keeps them locked into a match they already lost.

Skittles is a reference to the various faction loyalty badges on another team. A team composed of several factions displays several colors. Blue Stieners with Red Kurita and some purple Mariks mixed with some green Liaos. Taste the rainbow!

Seeing "skittles" is generally an indicator that they lack any singularly large groups on their team. Thus "skittles" are usually also Puggies.

Edited by Lykaon, 18 October 2017 - 02:52 AM.

[TWIAFU]

El Bandito, on 17 October 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

Yep, QP needs to have some influence over FP. That's the best way to get everyone involved.

How?

How can some non-unit, non faction, solo only QP pilot influence CW?

If QP has influence in CW, that mean we can FINALLY end solo play in CW? If your solo and want to get your CW on, play QP.

Leave CW for Unit and Skirmish teams.

[LordNothing]

TLBFestus, on 17 October 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Way back when everyone was screaming about the lack of faction play, especially the larger organized groups we were frustrated as hell that it took "over 90 days".

Well, PGI finally brought it out and It has some initial attraction to the casual players because it was new. However, the bottle neck design of the maps, and the constant and thorough beat-downs by the organized groups (in score AND in attitude by many) led the casual players to desert CW/FP.

Well, the belly-aching by the teams about not having enough players in that mode has pretty much continued non-stop since then. Now PGI puts on events to attract "targets" into CW/FP for their beloved competitive teams, cus, ....well...it's all about the eSports isn't it?

As far as I'm concerned it should be "walled off" from casual players. Let the comp teams play with themselves and quit wasting resources on it. That way RB can have his pet eSports arena and be happy. It's just too darn bad that they will have to sit in front of the screen and wait for matches only to play the same groups again and again and again. Fortunately the eleet can wipe their tears away with the money PGI puts into the tournament.

Unless of course PGI gets it's collective heads out of it's nether regions and implements a Single Player mode for CW/FP that only takes solo players no groups. Drop a randome 12 vs 12 into CW and the maps would at least get used by the player base.

At least that way the vast majority of the players in the game will actually get to play that mode of the game. Even then it's a waste of time as the battles are repetitive and the Inner sphere map and border changes have no depth, no meaning.

this would all be fine and dandy if quickplay held up better. i mean its terrible games with 12 people who just want to bolster their score, pad their stats, and make cbills to buy robuts with, to play more crappy qp games. if i cared about scores and stats and if it still payed out enough cbills, and i could drop quickly, and if it was different, then maybe just maybe id play qp more. right now the only thing that gets me in there is the events (the way a lot of people feel about fp events). the only way to get anything more out of this game at this point is to drop in fp. i dont think walling it off is the answer, if that was the case and i couldnt drop my pug *** in fp i wouldnt play this game at all, mostly because qp is stale as hell.

if pgi was willing to do anything at all with the game other than make endless waves of mechpacks, qp might be less stale, fp might be less exploitable, and the game would be better. but what we got is this end of service life game and simply locking people out of the only content the game has left will make them leave. the only real way to get pgi to change is to stop buying mechpacks, and the resulting change would likely not be a very positive one. its too late in this game's life to expect anything out of it more than what we got.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 October 2017 - 02:46 AM.

[LordNothing]

Jun Watarase, on 18 October 2017 - 02:35 AM, said:

The game was made to sell mechpacks, FP doesnt generate revenue directly so it gets a fraction of the attention that mechpacks do.

People wanted matchmaking in QP -> Seal clubbers whined every time that the game was about units vs pugs and kept flaming everyone who argued for a matchmaker -> PGI limited QP to 4 man teams and implemented a 8 man group queue -> units sync dropped to bypass the 4 man team limit because they wanted to club seals

It took years to get a matchmaker partly because some units threw a huge tantrum everytime it was brought up on the forum and kept yelling "join a unit! get on TS! buy a mic! this is a TEAM game!". When they finally got the group queue they wanted, they boycotted it because "theres nobody using it, its not OUR fault!".

Same thing happens everytime we want a matchmaker in FP. Some units throw a huge tantrum and start flaming everyone and yelling the same "get on TS!" stuff.

I've dropped in groups in FP and it does not really improve the experience. It is a complete waste of time when most of the enemy team fails to break 1k and we could probably win with 4 of our team afk. I dont see any point in clubbing seals. The pug vs pug matches during the FP event were amazing in comparison.

Ironically, the main reason why FP doesnt have a high population is because it doesnt have a matchmaker. Just like how QP used to be deserted till it got a matchmaker.

Put a matchmaker in and population will improve. We have to start from somewhere. Its like saying "oh we dont have money to make a good game so we made a bad game and since its bad, it doesnt sell and we dont have money to make a good game...". You start with a good game -> get money -> make improvements. You dont start with a bad game -> cant sell -> no money for improvements.

lots of good points but i dont think an fp match maker will ever work. if you dont believe me play qp on oceanic. then consider that fp only has a fraction of that population. using a match maker to increase population is a chicken and the egg scenario. you need a to get b, but you cant get a till you have b.

if it had an mm feature when it started maybe it wouldn't have suffered the severe population drop that it endures. but after four patches ranging from meh to wft, fp has simply soiled its reputation with the player base so badly that it is unrecoverable. short of a complete ground up re-design and re-branding which would probibly fail (either through pgi's ineptitude or players seeing it as whitewash).

[Vxheous]

TLBFestus, on 17 October 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Way back when everyone was screaming about the lack of faction play, especially the larger organized groups we were frustrated as hell that it took "over 90 days".

Well, PGI finally brought it out and It has some initial attraction to the casual players because it was new. However, the bottle neck design of the maps, and the constant and thorough beat-downs by the organized groups (in score AND in attitude by many) led the casual players to desert CW/FP.

Well, the belly-aching by the teams about not having enough players in that mode has pretty much continued non-stop since then. Now PGI puts on events to attract "targets" into CW/FP for their beloved competitive teams, cus, ....well...it's all about the eSports isn't it?

As far as I'm concerned it should be "walled off" from casual players. Let the comp teams play with themselves and quit wasting resources on it. That way RB can have his pet eSports arena and be happy. It's just too darn bad that they will have to sit in front of the screen and wait for matches only to play the same groups again and again and again. Fortunately the eleet can wipe their tears away with the money PGI puts into the tournament.

Unless of course PGI gets it's collective heads out of it's nether regions and implements a Single Player mode for CW/FP that only takes solo players no groups. Drop a randome 12 vs 12 into CW and the maps would at least get used by the player base.

At least that way the vast majority of the players in the game will actually get to play that mode of the game. Even then it's a waste of time as the battles are repetitive and the Inner sphere map and border changes have no depth, no meaning.

Comp players rarely wander into Faction play, because it's boring to club seals, or club seals as they gen rush you.

Edited by Vxheous, 18 October 2017 - 03:13 AM.

[El Bandito]

TWIAFU, on 18 October 2017 - 02:43 AM, said:

How?

How can some non-unit, non faction, solo only QP pilot influence CW?

If QP has influence in CW, that mean we can FINALLY end solo play in CW? If your solo and want to get your CW on, play QP.

Leave CW for Unit and Skirmish teams.

That's a valid question to ask, and there are more than one answers to it, from what I have seen. There should be a separate thread for it though.

[Phoolan Devi]

First off, I find it funny to always read, that CW/FW/FP is dead or going to die (like MW:O in general) but somehow it isn't happening. I joined about 1 1/2 years ago and was afraid I had joined a dead game......well, now I know it's just crap talk.

Now to the OP's problem of spawn camping:

There are three versions of it.

1) It's the only way to end a game fast. Those modes would be skirmish, siege defend . Here, you can't reach any objective other than totally destroy the enemy team, so, for me, spawn camping is totally legit.

2) Objectives and spawn are the same location. Those modes being incursion and assault. There, in order to reach the objective, a simultanious spawn camp is inevitable. (Exception would be if it is prefered to spawn camp in those modes and not finishing the objective)

3) Modes, where following the objective would lead to a faster ending of a game. Those modes being siege attack, assault, incursion, domination.

If a better team decides to spawn camp in those instances, that where it becomes, for me, stupid. First off, they waste everybodies time, since they could finish the game fast by simply fullfilling the objective. Second, they're wasting c-bill reward for themselfes and everybody else.

Those farmer boyz I really dispair and even though they might be "good" in playing the game, I consider them stupid childish noobs.

Against such teams I find it totally valid, that, as soon as it becomes obvious that they are farmer boyz, I will look for a quiet secluded and safe spot and power down. (But be smart enough to do it, so your team can't call you out, because for some strange reason there are too many teammates who will blame you for prolonging the game rather than hold those really responsible for the delay......the enemy farmer boy team, who could end the game in seconds).

tl:dr There are justified spawn camps and there are the spawn camps of stupid childish farmer boyz teams.

Edited by Phoolan Devi, 18 October 2017 - 04:37 AM.

[storm0545]

I mean if one of the main reasons for spawn camping and just dragging matches out to farm kills is to earn cbills couldn't pgi just remove the cbills you'd earn from killing mechs and just make a static based on loyalty/merc contract lump some of cbills to encourage actually playing the objective on non skrim/assault/conquest style FP matches?

For the 3 match types where it doesn't work it could be possible to add a sort of weapons lock on spawn campers so they have to back off so the team being camped can leave the spawn, and as for the counter argument on that allowing the others to fight from the spawn add in a out of bounds mechanic that forces you to leave spawn or you self pop like in quick play out of bounds areas and just add more walls or something to allow them to get out of the spawn without walking into concentrated fire.

[MustrumRidcully]

Bombast, on 17 October 2017 - 10:33 PM, said:

I think you'll find that people will not be receptive to Group QP being cannibalized for FP. Nor will they appreciate being forced to play with drop decks if they want to play with friends.

The drop deck will not be strictly required. You don't want to play with drop dekcs or respawns, you simply remove the check mark for "Invasion" and "Scouting", and you get to play the standard quick play matches you already know. You might till technically need to have a drop deck ready ,but you'd never actually use it.

Think of it similar to how you can currently put check marks on whether you want to also play on European or Oceania servers.

[Curccu]

Black Ivan, on 17 October 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:

CW/FW was doomed from day one when PGI refused to seperate groups and solo players and implement any sort of working match maker. Decisions like Tug of War of Long Tom didn't help as well

They did not refuse separating groups and solos, they did 2 separated queues and tried it for a week or three(cannot remember) and solo player queue was so low it didn't work.

What might work is separated 12-man queue and groups up 4 + solos queues.

Don't know if there is enough players to implement any kind of working MM, outside of the events probably not.

[LORD ORION]

John Archer, on 17 October 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

I just got out of a FW, (Faction Warfare), match. I now play on the Clan side. I figured I purchased enough Clan mechs over the years that I should probably play them.

I digress.

I just got out of a FW match where I was the PUG in a 10 person unit. The IS team was pretty much all PUGS.

By the 2nd drop for most of the unit, it was stated over comms to push their spawn point.

That, to me is a piss-poor way to play a game. They literally yanked the fun of playing away from the other team as they swarmed them and killed them in rapid succession.

Something needs to be done about this. There are many casual gamers out ther, myself included, who play MWO for... fun. Getting swarmed as one spawns, and thus not getting the chance to play fully, is wrong and not very sporting.

I stated on comms that I was not going to participate in attacking their spawn point. That's about all I could do.

Oh and get this: The unit considers PUGS, 'Skittles'. Basically just cash cows I guess. The unit I dropped with stated, after I made my objection, that they just want to get the c-bills and quickly get on to the next match.

Seriously??? Is this what this game has come to???

Except for the 1000s of whales who only play FW and have spent $100s?

[Lykaon]

TWIAFU, on 18 October 2017 - 02:43 AM, said:

How?

How can some non-unit, non faction, solo only QP pilot influence CW?

Complain a lot about large groups preventing them from having fun and cite some anicdotal experience as imperical fact resulting in a dramatic alteration of group play to accomidate the solo crybaby?

Edited by Lykaon, 18 October 2017 - 06:01 AM.

[Asym]

slide, on 17 October 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

CW was the product PGI advertised this game to be, QP was the filler until it was developed. It is only too hard when people don't have the opportunity to learn. CW was pug stomp mode from day 1 with no match maker. It left only the truly hardy or the truly stupid.
Agreed CW is sub standard, but PGI wouldn't recognize that learning curve if it was attached to the end of a ppc barrel and shot them in the face. You simply cannot understand what is good/bad about your game when you have no one employed by PGI that can play it at a high level. There is far more to this game than numbers on a spread sheet and code on a computer.

First off, sorry I'm a little frustrated.

And right there above is a major problem.
This is a game and a majority of the players aren't "stupid" nor are they ever going to be at a "high level." Games succeed if they are first and foremost fun and have appeal to the many, not the few...

I read this forum for a purpose (part of a graduate program I am in) and I have studied FPS games. Want a good way to fix MWO: make it fun for the "noobs", "potatos", "the Stupid" and everyother moniker forum participants and MWO gamers use to belittle everyone "not good enough"...... I am a potato because I want to be.......not because I am stupid or can't "git GuD." Many MWO players forget that and make really stupid assumptions about new players. Our W/L isn't a valid number to gauge potential or real expertise and if you do, well, the population keeps getiing samller and smaller because of your assumptions..... So, who wins that fight???? Hmmmm??? We lost 2 more new players this last month.

Yes, faction play is the MWO story line. It is the map of the conflict the MW story created and all of the products come from that "lore" and tradition. It just seems that there is no place for the new players nor will there ever be....... Blames anything you want for that but, it isn't just the game.
PGI is catering to the "self-important" few and cling to the niche spenders and their whims.... They read these articles and screen them for market changes. Those changes are then included in the balance passes to cater to the market wishes. You wanted MG spam, you got it and then, you hated it and PGI did both (buffs and nerfs...) It's a gamer developer cycle and you, in these forum articles, are telling PGI what you like and hate........ From your lips to their ears.....
So, MWO you will reap what you've sown. Keep stomping, keep farming, keep making fun of people and keep degrading the gameplay ethics till there is no reason to be here and then, there'll be no one to blame....... Just my opinion and apologies if this is a little frosty. As I said, we lost 2 guys to the sillyness and that is frustrating to me.....

Edited by Asym, 18 October 2017 - 06:53 AM.