40 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Jay Leon Hart, on 22 October 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

GH of 2, 17 damage, 13 heat, 1.35s duration, 3.75s cooldown?

It's a start. Don't think we need to be so punitive on the duration; remember that it's a 450 meter weapon and remember what faction's 'Mechs this is going on. Like this, I can fit two and four ERML for 54 damage and that's about par for what we have now. Getting Six ERML in for 64 damage, but my heat efficiency is going to suck (look at two HPPC + 6x ERML with 20 DHS on a BNC-3M to get a ballpark estimate).

I would honestly say 12 heat and 1.25 seconds duration is the place to be. Damage and cooldown are fine.

Another thing to do is increase the range on standard LL to 480-510 m and let the BLC stay at 450 m so you can be more generous with the BLC's other attributes.

[davoodoo]

Bombast, on 22 October 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Yes, and it was designed that way - The fluff makes it very clear how disappointed everyone was in it.

Unlike the Bombast Laser, which is a fan favorite, in and out of universe.

I dont know why either, it was inaccurate and offered 4 extra dmg and heat at the price of 2 tons. Have i mentioned 3 points penatly to hit...id take ppc over it.

I guess it just glowed funny and everyone at solaris was on lsd.

Edited by davoodoo, 22 October 2017 - 12:47 PM.

[FupDup]

Part of the fluff reason that the Blazer existed was to be more efficient at pinpoint damage than double LL, at the cost of being less efficient in other areas. If anything the BLC should have slightly shorter beam duration than the LL, or equal at worst.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 22 October 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Part of the fluff reason that the Blazer existed was to be more efficient at pinpoint damage than double LL, at the cost of being less efficient in other areas. If anything the BLC should have slightly shorter beam duration than the LL, or equal at worst.

Do not honestly care about the fluff. Its raison d'être in MWO would be to provide high-alpha capability, simple as that.

For balance, core rule ignore.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Do not honestly care about the fluff. Its raison d'être in MWO would be to provide high-alpha capability, simple as that.

For balance, core rule ignore.

So basically just an oversized IS HLL. I was hoping for something a little more "exotic" (it's considered experimental for a while) mainly for fun purposes, rather than making it into what is essentially an "Extra-Large Laser."

If you wanna talk balance, those stats at the top of this page are probably not quite balanced...at least against the IS. 17 damage, 12 heat, and the same ghost heat cap as the weaker LL? That would curbstomp the IS LL into the ground for the DPH efficiency alone (not to mention lower tonnage), and that 510m range buff wouldn't change that.

This is the point where you're going to say that a lot of IS stuff is a bit too weak anyways right now, and that's true but I think you might be getting a little ahead of yourself here.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 22 October 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

So basically just an oversized IS HLL. I was hoping for something a little more "exotic" (it's considered experimental for a while) mainly for fun purposes, rather than making it into what is essentially an "Extra-Large Laser."

Then what's the Bombast Laser for? The BLC is hardly exotic in its presentation, it's two LL strapped together. More of a Bubba-rig, really.

Quote

If you wanna talk balance, those stats at the top of this page are probably not quite balanced...at least against the IS. 17 damage, 12 heat, and the same ghost heat cap as the weaker LL? That would curbstomp the IS LL into the ground for the DPH efficiency alone (not to mention lower tonnage), and that 510m range buff wouldn't change that.

I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you. I'm still going to take LL on something like an STK 4N because the extra damage is worth more than a couple kph that a bigger engine gives me. And there's also the longer burn and the longer cool-down. We're above the 0.8 second mark, it doesn't take much extra duration for its effects to be felt and IS damage still won't be high enough to mitigate it entirely the way the Clans do.

And for the record, I did suggest 16 damage on the previous page, but 1 point of damage isn't going to make or break the weapon in this case.

Quote

This is the point where you're going to say that a lot of IS stuff is a bit too weak anyways right now, and that's true but I think you might be getting a little ahead of yourself here.

Am I? You know as well as I do which ways they are weak. Should I suggest hypothetical stats for a hypothetical weapon in context of what we have now or what we would like to see?

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Am I? You know as well as I do which ways they are weak. Should I suggest hypothetical stats for a hypothetical weapon in context of what we have now or what we would like to see?

So, this is a preemptive strike to "why can't we have nice things"?



In all of the new tech, the IS only gets on par with the existing Clan tech (as in finally getting a complete set of ER lasers, UAC/LBX, etc.) while having zero access to the really cool stuff like XPulse that would bridge some level of IS weapon diversity that now currently exists with Clans.

How about we just argue to get it into the game first, before talking about theory. It's not like the IS Small Lasers are a thing, but then again they were on track to be nerfed (for reasons only the balance overlord understands)... how about we just get things that make the IS weapons compete instead of being afterthoughts?

Feels like a Lostech discussion though.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 October 2017 - 02:40 PM.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Then what's the Bombast Laser for? The BLC is hardly exotic in its presentation, it's two LL strapped together. More of a Bubba-rig, really.

The Bombast Laser has its unique charge-up mechanic and varying levels of damage/heat/duration/cooldown based on how long it's charged up. Basically a "swiss army knife" laser that can be used as a suped-up LL for poking at full charge or fire off faster/colder but weaker shots when you're up close and need to finish someone off.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you. I'm still going to take LL on something like an STK 4N because the extra damage is worth more than a couple kph that a bigger engine gives me. And there's also the longer burn and the longer cool-down. We're above the 0.8 second mark, it doesn't take much extra duration for its effects to be felt and IS damage still won't be high enough to mitigate it entirely the way the Clans do.

And for the record, I did suggest 16 damage on the previous page, but 1 point of damage isn't going to make or break the weapon in this case.

The Stalker is a weird case there it runs out of slots faster than tonnage to a greater extent than even other IS assaults or the Warhawk.

Considering that IS stuff in general is heavy in weight (and bulky so you can't always have FF), saving 1 ton per Blazer is pretty valuable, especially as you go below the assault class (where slots aren't as much of a premium).

Then there's those bulky IS Dubs that are hard to boat, which makes the heat savings have higher value per point than the damage reduction. Heat has the final say at the end of the day anyways when it comes to builds.

Next there's the ghost heat cap higher than any other IS energy option...currently just 27 for the IS LL (30 for HPPC and LPL), and you'd be letting the BLC have a cap all the way up at 48-51 (which I think would be the highest in the game right?). That seems ridiculously unfair by comparison, considering that the whole reason Spooky Heat exists is to limit that kind of stuff across the board (but is failing at it when it comes to laser vomit).

Finally there's the hardpoint consideration, given that IS gundams aren't usually as well-endowed in that area as Clan gundams.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Am I? You know as well as I do which ways they are weak. Should I suggest hypothetical stats for a hypothetical weapon in context of what we have now or what we would like to see?

I'm just saying that it feels like the proposed BLC isn't even just a little bit better than existing IS options, but head-and-shoulders better. Having other buffed IS guns to compare it to (probably stronger buffs than the 510m LL) would make it look a lot less like a sore thumb outlier.

Edited by FupDup, 22 October 2017 - 02:53 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 22 October 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

So, this is a preemptive strike to "why can't we have nice things"?



In all of the new tech, the IS only gets on par with the existing Clan tech (as in finally getting a complete set of ER lasers, UAC/LBX, etc.) while having zero access to the really cool stuff like XPulse that would bridge some level of IS weapon diversity that now currently exists with Clans.

How about we just argue to get it into the game first, before talking about theory. It's not like the IS Small Lasers are a thing, but then again they were on track to be nerfed (for reasons only the balance overlord understands)... how about we just get things that make the IS weapons compete instead of being afterthoughts?

Feels like a Lostech discussion though.

You need to have a goal in mind when you ask for something to be added to the game. Right now, without straight-buffing damage, the IS can't approach the alpha strikes that the Clans unless they go to 95 tons; then they can compete with a Clan Heavy. And that's not even touching the heat equation. Given the title of the thread, I am pretty sure getting the IS to have more competitive alpha's is what Kin3ticx had in mind. That, or he was joking about how even that wouldn't help.

We just got a giant-*** injection of guns that mostly turned out to be "just for fun." Some of them have potential to be turned into serious answers. Personally, though, I prefer new items to be serious answers from the outset.

FupDup, on 22 October 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

I'm just saying that it feels like the proposed BLC isn't even just a little bit better than existing IS options, but head-and-shoulders better. Having other buffed IS guns to compare it to (probably stronger buffs than the 510m LL) would make it look a lot less like a sore thumb outlier.

It is kind of the point. The IS ERML heat needs to come down to 4, CD to 3.25. The LL should get 510 m, duration back down to 1. The LPL should get its damage back to 11, heat back down to 7. So on, and so forth.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

You need to have a goal in mind when you ask for something to be added to the game. Right now, without straight-buffing damage, the IS can't approach the alpha strikes that the Clans unless they go to 95 tons; then they can compete with a Clan Heavy. And that's not even touching the heat equation. Given the title of the thread, I am pretty sure getting the IS to have more competitive alpha's is what Kin3ticx had in mind. That, or he was joking about how even that wouldn't help.

We just got a giant-*** injection of guns that mostly turned out to be "just for fun." Some of them have potential to be turned into serious answers. Personally, though, I prefer new items to be serious answers from the outset.

Goal: Have a useful stronger laser than the IS Large Laser, to somewhat compete with the Clan Heavy Large Laser.

There.

You have to scale the damage and heat relative to the tonnage and crit commitment, which is pretty significant on their own merits.

Exact numbers? I'd rather leave it to anyone but PGI to make them up, but at the very least, it would have to be AT LEAST double in damage than the ISLL (probably with up to an additional 50% base damage of 2 ISLLs fired simultaneously). Heat would scale almost double as a starting point and tweaked from there.

Done.

However by PGI standards, it would simply be only 50% more damage than 1 ISLL, and 50% more heat than 2 combined IS Large Lasers.

So, I guess balance achieved™.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 October 2017 - 03:05 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 22 October 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

Goal: Have a useful stronger laser than the IS Large Laser, to somewhat compete with the Clan Heavy Large Laser.

There.

You have to scale the damage and heat relative to the tonnage and crit commitment, which is pretty significant on their own merits.

Exact numbers? I'd rather leave it to anyone but PGI to make them up, but at the very least, it would have to be AT LEAST double in damage than the ISLL (probably with up to an additional 50% base damage of 2 ISLLs fired simultaneously). Heat would scale almost double as a starting point and tweaked from there.

Done.

However by PGI standards, it would simply be only 50% more damage than 1 ISLL, and 50% more heat than 2 combined IS Large Lasers.

So, I guess balance achieved™.

You are having the conversation we just had on Page 1.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

You are having the conversation we just had on Page 1.

Start demanding for the ZEUS-6Y.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zeus

Edited by Deathlike, 22 October 2017 - 03:09 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 22 October 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Start demanding for the ZEUS-6Y.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zeus

Quirk: -50% speed when firing energy weapons.

Dat MAD-4X, tho...

[TheArisen]

Bombast, on 22 October 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Yes, and it was designed that way - The fluff makes it very clear how disappointed everyone was in it.

Unlike the Bombast Laser, which is a fan favorite, in and out of universe.

PGI should add both. The only thing they have in common is being an extra heavy laser weapon.

[Kin3ticX]

Lets say PGI decided to give us the Binary Laser Cannon.

IMO, it should be more a spiritual successor rather than a copy pasta from TT ruleset.

Heavy PPC sort of is meant to be the IS big gunz counterpart to the Heavy Laser, but it also has a high tonnage problem. It doesnt fit on smaller mechs like the HLL can.

So against the whole dumb premise of this thread, in all seriousness the Bin Laser is too heavy to help smaller mechs. It would only help larger mechs that are hardpoint starved making it a niche weapon....

Maybe it would work on a Banshee 3M since its 95t....i dunno.

I don't think the IS ever gets anything like a 4 ton HLL unless it can start mounting clan weapons. X-pulse is something I recall but thats more a rapid fire thing if I remember.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 22 October 2017 - 07:02 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Kin3ticX, on 22 October 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

So against the whole dumb premise of this thread, in all seriousness the Bin Laser is too heavy to help smaller mechs. It would only help larger mechs that are hardpoint starved making it a niche weapon....

It would also fit on big fat 'Mechs that are damage-starved relative to Clans. Make it and ERML heat-efficient enough, and we can get IS vomit alphas up into the mid-60s, which still much better than the 50-55 points they do now (LUL at 50 damage mid-range alpha on an 85-95 ton 'Mech).

As far as lasers go, the Variable Speed Pulse would be the IS option to give lighter 'Mechs more damage. PGI might have to be more generous with said damage, though.

[Kin3ticX]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

We just got a giant-*** injection of guns that mostly turned out to be "just for fun." Some of them have potential to be turned into serious answers.

Yup. Maybe Chris the balance dev can take another look at nu-tek.

I never even bothered to try

Light Gauss
Stealth Armor
LBX-20
Light PPC

PGI practically banned the LBX-20 and its not like it was going to be a great weapon. Gonna need to change the rules to -1 crit, i dont care how much the lore purists cry.

I'd like to see the PPCs better differeniate since now there is like 5 of them. Maybe get rid of the 90m min range which is some really dumb lore throwback that should have been axed 5 years ago. Then differenciate them in ways that have nothing to do with the min range crap.

MRMs probably need another tweak, they are not really any good at Medium range. Maybe start with a 10% speed buff. Right now MRMs are pretty under utilized, at least by me, havent done anything with them since the civil war patch.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 22 October 2017 - 07:32 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Kin3ticX, on 22 October 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:

Yup. Maybe Chris the balance dev can take another look at nu-tek.

I never even bothered to try

Light Gauss
Stealth Armor
LBX-20
Light PPC

PGI practically banned the LBX-20 and its not like it was going to be a great weapon. Gonna need to change the rules to -1 crit, i dont care how much the lore purists cry.

I'd like to see the PPCs better differeniate since now there is like 5 of them. Maybe get rid of the 90m min range which is some really dumb lore throwback that should have been axed 5 years ago. Then differenciate them in ways that have nothing to do with the min range crap.

MRMs probably need another tweak, they are not really any good at Medium range. Maybe start with a 10% speed buff. Right now MRMs are pretty under utilized, at least by me, havent done anything with them since the civil war patch.

MRMs have potential to be the IS answer to mid-range vomit, if PGI dramatically tightens up the spread and further increases velocity. You can build some very heat efficient 80+ alpha builds using MRMs and lasers and the range on the MRMs now is solid. But still, they remain little more than lulzy sand-blasters.

Agreed on the PPCs. There are too many and there is too much overlap. I would like to see the velocity on non-ER PPCs bumped to 1400 m/s. I would also like to see the range on the standard PPC bumped up to 600 meters, because 540 for such a slow-firing weapon just doesn't seem adequate. The 'Mechs that get it quirked to reach 648 m feel right. I would also like to see LPPC heat reduced to 4.5 and I'd like to see the cool-down reduced to 3 seconds; then it can keep the ghost-limit of 3 and serve in slightly more of a raw DPS role (been playing 3+3 on a BJ-3 and it's pretty entertaining, would be much better with a shorter CD). Snubs need heat reduced to at most 8 and also need a shorter cool-down, perhaps 3.25 seconds. They ought to be good to combo with SRMs, and right now they are honestly too hot and slow to be anything other than a gimmick.

LB-20X has one schtick, and that's being able to twin-fire with ghost heat. If they tighten up the spread, it could better make use of its other schtick: triple max range. TBQH, if PGI would just allow the AC/20s to twin-fire without ghost heat again, the LB-20X wouldn't even be on the radar for the IS, reduced critslot or no.

I've played quite a bit with LGauss and, based on how it performs when there are ballistic cool-down quirks in play, it has potential to be a solid long-range power-position tool, but it needs more DPS and more velocity.Would prefer the DPS come from a damage bump to 10, but it would also work if it came from a further reduction of cool-down to ~2.55 seconds.

HGauss needs more range and more ammo per ton. That's really all there is to it.

[The Lighthouse]

When I see these kind of threads, I get an urge to create yet another alternative account, and I shall name it "Addicted to Alpha Strike".

But with all of the nerfing PGI has been doing, I also have an urge to create an alternative account named as "Addicted to Blanket Nerfs".

Which one should I make?

[Kin3ticX]

The Lighthouse, on 22 October 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

When I see these kind of threads, I get an urge to create yet another alternative account, and I shall name it "Addicted to Alpha Strike".

But with all of the nerfing PGI has been doing, I also have an urge to create an alternative account named as "Addicted to Blanket Nerfs".

Which one should I make?

Well, alpha strike is MWOs dirty secret. PGI just tries to keep it under some level of control rather than completely force us to chainfire 6 different weapons.