181 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

whats a torch ship?

torch drive = fusion drive basically

its a high specific impulse mass conversion drive

like the epstein drives from the expanse

Edited by Khobai, 24 October 2017 - 09:54 AM.

[Jman5]

To me the most unrealistic thing in Battletech is the whole concept of lost-tech. The idea that you could just lose most of the documentation for how your modern society operates is a fantasy. Even in the event of a near total collapse of your society, data is so easily stored, copied, and disseminated that I just can't see it. On top of that you have armies of specialists spread all over the Inner Sphere who spend every day working and understanding this stuff.

All it takes is one guy on one planet with 1 thumbdrive and everything reverts back.

Edited by Jman5, 24 October 2017 - 10:25 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

All it takes is one guy on one planet with 1 thumbdrive and everything reverts back.

isnt that explained by comstar basically killing all the guys with thumbdrives then assassinating all the scientists whenever they were about to make breakthroughs so comstar could keep its monopoly on technology

similar to how the catholic church oppressed science during the dark ages. because science contradicted a lot of the teachings of the church.

comstar is pretty much 100% responsible for all the knowledge being repressed/lost. the succession wars created an opportunity for them to take over and repress all the technology.

Edited by Khobai, 24 October 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[Bombast]

Jman5, on 24 October 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

To me the most unrealistic thing in Battletech is the whole concept of lost-tech. The idea that you could just lose most of the documentation for how your modern society operates is a fantasy. Even in the event of a near total collapse of your society, data is so easily stored, copied, and disseminated that I just can't see it. On top of that you have armies of specialists spread all over the Inner Sphere who spend every day working and understanding this stuff.

All it takes is one guy on one planet with 1 thumbdrive and everything reverts back.

It's not quite as silly as it sounds. There's no central patent office in the inner sphere, no great libraries where every bit of information ever is stored. What there is is 6 great houses (And later, 5 great houses and an organization hellbent of annihilating everyone else's knowledge while hoarding their own) who all hate each other and go to absurd lengths to keep technological advances to themselves. All the information, and the people who know about it, are jealously guarded, usually near the same facilities where they can ply that knowledge.

Which is rather inconvenient, when your neighbor decides to nuke said facility.

This is compounded by the nature of the knowledge (A lot of lostech seems to fall under 'illogical science,' where you can't just experiment your way back into it. Jump drives in particularly are noted as being hard to understand, and even during the best years of the Star league only a handful of people understood how they actually functioned), and the manufacturing difficulties inherit to most lostech (Endo-steel, a core component in a lot of lostech, can only be manufactured in low gravity factories), and it's not quite that stupid. Consider how long it would take the human race to restart modern circuitry production if we were to suffer a nuclear apocalypse.

And, of course, the Inner Sphere does learn - When the Dark Ages come along, the Inner Sphere gets rocked just as badly as it dud during the Succession Wars. But because the nature of how they distributed intel around, they didn't fall into the same trap.

[Khobai]

Quote

Consider how long it would take the human race to restart modern circuitry production if we were to suffer a nuclear apocalypse

yeah infrastructure doesnt just pop up overnight. you cant just build a chip printing machine from materials lying around in the mud.

you need to build machines that can create better machines that can create even better machines

even if you have people who know how to make something as complex as an integrated circuit, it could take decades to rebuild the infrastructure to actually do it.

Edited by Khobai, 24 October 2017 - 10:43 AM.

[Koniving]

Paigan, on 24 October 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

Also:
- How ridiculously bad the weapon tech is compared to ours today. Range, weight, power. Lostech can't explain that because Clans didn't have lostech and yet their tech is ultra crappy, too.

There's actually quite a bit of explanation lost in the sauce about it though. (This is about the weapon ranges, but it falls into mech size which also play a big factor in ranges, it is insanely ridiculous if you think of MWO's size mechs.)
For example autocannons actually have a ballistically effective range of 2,000 meters.

Tanks in desert storm (Soviet ones anyway), also had..."tanks of Soviet design in Desert Storm, as the effective range of the main gun in the Soviet/Iraqi tanks was less than 2,000 metres (6,600 ft)." (from M1 Abrams wiki).

Autocannons are actually akin to those used for anti-aircraft, not actual tank canons. Those are Mech Rifles, which have ballistic effective ranges of 3,000+ meters.

This said...
The ranges in general are partly (and this is what is often lost in cinematics and such), because so long as there is a conscious pilot in the neuro helm, the mech will (so long as the pilot doesn't intend to take the shots) automatically try to dodge or deflect incoming fire using its limbs. Yes, laser ranges are terrible because laser ranges are terrible due to particle effects, blah blah blah. But ballistic weapon ranges are largely due to dodging and deflecting. There's also the tallest mech in Battletech being 14.4 (which is 1 meter taller than PGI's tallest light) so mechs are NOT that big.

There's also recoil, the fact that ACs are giant glorified machine guns with exploding bullets and require a lot of shells to do their damage.

Now don't get me wrong, there's a lot of ******** in Battletech too. Weapon ranges isn't actually one of them... Newer explanations can sometimes be pretty ******** too. One of the reasons I like those in the 1980s. Some of them actually did some homework. Now when you take the same ranges and apply them against tanks.. then you got ******** again. Since actual mech sizes and tank sizes are not that dissimilar from each other, and tanks can't automatically dodge.

Tank. 55 ton Shadowhawk (slightly larger than the Canonical size of the 2D (the 5th gen are a bit bigger with lighter materials and more space for double heatsinks, XL engines, etc; so maybe about this size or a little larger as it is noteworthy that the SHK 5s grew a meter and a half in total girth [so not necessarily just in height]). And then PGI's size..... which is taller than BT's tallest mech in history.

A scale art drawn by the very first novelist for Battletech.


BT Wolverine in scale.

PGI's idea.



Heights in order:

Shadowhawk 2D. My height. The commonly accepted minimum height of a Battlemech [though I can name seven examples that defy this, including the 6 meter tall Firefly and the 7.3 meter tall Locust), the average height of a man (6 feet), the height of an Atlas (and MWO's Hunchback, and then the height of the tallest 'Mech until after the 3060+ storyline and dark ages, 14.4 meters held by the Executioner.

Edited by Koniving, 24 October 2017 - 11:25 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Tech has been lost before and can remain lost...greek fire jumps to mind. The Greeks didn't have thumbdrives, but they had written language and it would be hard to fathom that the formula wouldn't have been known pretty widely in their military. Yet, it was lost somehow over time, despite being a very effective means of combat.

So, while it is a big stretch to believe that so much tech could be lost, I can go with the storyline without my brain hurting.

[FupDup]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 24 October 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

Tech has been lost before and can remain lost...greek fire jumps to mind. The Greeks didn't have thumbdrives, but they had written language and it would be hard to fathom that the formula wouldn't have been known pretty widely in their military. Yet, it was lost somehow over time, despite being a very effective means of combat.

So, while it is a big stretch to believe that so much tech could be lost, I can go with the storyline without my brain hurting.

That's because, as you mentioned, the Greeks didn't live in the age of information with computers and interlinked global communication everywhere. It's not an accurate comparison because BT is way in the future, which would imply that their communications and other tech are supposed to heavily exceed what we have in 2017 (just look how far America has progressed since the 1700s).

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 24 October 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

The Great Houses. I really do not think humanity will regress to feudal system again, unless nuclear wars wipe the slate clean.

I myself am counting on an asteroid or vlrus dong the deed.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

My brain mostly starts hurting in FW...(which while I enjoy that mode the most it has laughable moments)

The one that always gets me is: When the dropship drops you right between 10 enemies circled around your known landing site to kill you as you hit the ground. I imagine the mech pilot screaming to the dropship crew as they approach "not here...don't drop me here....drop me anywhere else!!"..and the dropship crew says "sorry...pgi's rules..." and drops him.. a moment later the crew hears his dying screams over comms as they fly away.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 24 October 2017 - 11:57 AM.

[Mole]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 24 October 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

Tech has been lost before and can remain lost...greek fire jumps to mind. The Greeks didn't have thumbdrives, but they had written language and it would be hard to fathom that the formula wouldn't have been known pretty widely in their military. Yet, it was lost somehow over time, despite being a very effective means of combat.

So, while it is a big stretch to believe that so much tech could be lost, I can go with the storyline without my brain hurting.

Except Greek Fire was used by the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire, to some) and its formula was a closely guarded state secret. When the empire fell, all record of the formula for Greek Fire was lost since it was only known to trusted individuals sworn to secrecy. The kind of tech that was lost in the succession wars was known by many. It would be like there being a huge war here on earth and then everyone forgot how to make cars. There are enough people out there who understand how cars work that barring a total extinction of the species the knowledge would never be completely lost.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

FupDup, on 24 October 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

That's because, as you mentioned, the Greeks didn't live in the age of information with computers and interlinked global communication everywhere. It's not an accurate comparison because BT is way in the future, which would imply that their communications and other tech are supposed to heavily exceed what we have in 2017 (just look how far America has progressed since the 1700s).

My point is that the details of how to make it should have been disseminated widely enough to not have been lost even back then.

The irony of a computer based society is that it is possible to lose secret, highly technical information. Details on industrial/military trade secrets are often kept a secret as possible. US stealth technology was a prime example of a tech whose details have remained a close secret. Still highly unlikely to be totally lost...but it doesn't make my brain hurt to say a new dark age (technologically) occurred and set things back a ton. But...everyone is entitled to their own thoughts on the matter and it is highly, highly unlikely

[Jman5]

Khobai, on 24 October 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

isnt that explained by comstar basically killing all the guys with thumbdrives then assassinating all the scientists whenever they were about to make breakthroughs so comstar could keep its monopoly on technology

similar to how the catholic church oppressed science during the dark ages. because science contradicted a lot of the teachings of the church.

comstar is pretty much 100% responsible for all the knowledge being repressed/lost. the succession wars created an opportunity for them to take over and repress all the technology.

The whole concept of the Middle Ages being one long period of backwardness enforced by the Church is a misnomer. It was basically just a hitjob by people who were critical of Religion and obsessed with Greeks and Romans. Unfortunately the concept still sticks to this day.

In truth Europe of the Middle Ages was just as diverse and vibrant as it is today. Plenty of progress and innovation took place in the centuries between the end of the Western Roman Empire and the Renaissance. The rights of the common man, the power and role of the church, the power and organizational capability of the State all varied greatly from region to region.

I have no doubt when the writers of battletech came up with the concept of technological regression they had this period of history in mind. However as I said earlier it is a mischaracterization of what actually happened. This misunderstanding of the middle ages combined with the modern robustness of digitized information is why I find Lost Tech so unbelievable. Even if you inject some malevolent organization that seeks to delete all the things, the galaxy is too big and information is too easily spreadable.

Edited by Jman5, 24 October 2017 - 12:01 PM.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

The two most unrealistic things for me are the following two.

As i calculated for another forum discussion, a 100t mech fireing 2 normal gauss at a time with projectiles reaching 2000m/s, After 6ms it would move backward with 20kph (340G). It should fall down, the pilot must black out from the kick and manny more.

The fusion engine must radiate neutrons because its a ******* fusion and it will trow neutrons at you. Depending on the energy of the emitted neutrons would require several meters of concrete walls to get it to normal levels, meaning the neutrons from the reactor have the same energy as neutrons from natural sources. No word about the number of neutrons so far.
Lets assume we get 3.5MeV for the neutrons indicationg a deuterium + tritium fusion which seems so far tob e the easiest to initiate and also one with low energy neutrons as byproduct Lets also completely forget about all the other kinds of radiation that are generated when neutrons electrons protons and bindigne nergy from the cores are set free. Lets forget that depending on the shielding materials radiaoactivation can happen when bombarded with neutrons. Just forget about all that ****. Just think about neutrons. and how do they get trough materials.
Lets say pure iron shield. Guess what - once the neutrons are below the minimum energy an iron core can accept attenuation is done by inelastic scatering adn the yfly more or less just trough the material. Leaving at about 850keV - still not good for anybody nearby. So you have to mix materials. I have read about a first iron shield and then 60cm of concrete. Somehow the engine should be quite a bit larger than teh emch and a lot of times heavier.

Edited by Cara Carcass, 24 October 2017 - 03:07 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

The cultures of the power blocks, based around the ruling house.

and um

Mech's

Air power was completely ignored making this game, in a real war big mechs that can't hide are called target practice.

[InvictusLee]

PGI's strict adherence to fake physics, that are somewhere between real and total starwars.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

The range of weapons is the biggest one.

You can explain it away as "muh EW" and "they dodge", but the reality is that you could probably take someone right off the street with no experience with firearms whatsoever, and teach them how to hit a mech-sized target at 300m within 5 minutes.

Mechs are not fast enough to dodge lasers, and all the EW in the world (which is conveniently never mentioned in any of the fiction) isn't going to stop someone from hitting a 15m tall target 90m away. That's total ********.

The ranges are cooked not just so that it's playable on a kitchen table, but so that melee can be incorporated into the rules as a relevant tactic as well.

[Athom83]

Koniving, on 24 October 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

There's also the tallest mech in Battletech being 14.4 (which is 1 meter taller than PGI's tallest light) so mechs are NOT that big.

IIRC, the Catapult was 20m from foot to top of the ears (arms).

[Athom83]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 24 October 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

The Greeks didn't have thumbdrives, but they had written language and it would be hard to fathom that the formula wouldn't have been known pretty widely in their military. Yet, it was lost somehow over time, despite being a very effective means of combat.

Damascus Steel as well. Some industries today can come somewhat close to the results (some are claiming they did replicate it, yet are showing no proof), but the ancient method is still lost on us today. Starlite also just became lost to us when the chemist (who never shared his formula) died a few years ago.

[qS Sachiel]

Khobai, on 24 October 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

mechs having to hide behind rocks because rocks give better protection than armor is the most unrealistic thing in MWO

if rocks are such good protection why dont we just attach rocks to our mechs

mechs should not have to hide and play peekaboo because their armor is made of wet tissue paper draped over cardboard structure.

game needs to go back to 8v8 or triple armor structure for 12v12

What?
Defilade?
Why not use your brain and preserve your armor until you really need it, rather than just tanking shots like a hero?