170 replies to this topic

[Dr Hobo]

Leave autocannon jam chance. It's always been a thing. But i do agree heat needs to be fine tuned a bit more. HOWEVER it shouldn't be so punishing unless you're pushing your heat cap too hard. Thats where the jam chance should rise until it does jam then forces you to back off and cool down. If you're running cool(or below your 30% heat threshold) then UAC/RAC shouldn't jam very often,if at all unless you're constantly double tapping it. If you accidentally slip in a double tap,it shouldn't punish you for it.

For larger ACs no,I think they're mostly fine. They need some fine tuning(i.e crit splitting,ammo variations,slightly less heat)

Remove ghost heat,add convergence that increases as the mech heats up.

Because the myomers can't function as finely as before,and the heat building causing distortion in front of the laser lens.

To be honest,you wouldn't have as many issues if heatsinks were worth a damn. SHS are worthless unless boated in extreme numbers,and DHS aren't true DHS. What is it? Like 1.25? If its 1.25 or 1.5 you need at least 3-4 to be worth 2 actual DHS.

Basically,the entire heat system needs a total overhaul.

[Curccu]

Dr Hobo, on 26 October 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

Remove ghost heat,add convergence that increases as the mech heats up.

PGI has stated that they will not add slow convergence because it would break hitreg --> they are unable to code it properly.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

GH has tons of loopholes because PGI is unwilling to fix them. They always go extra soft for laser boating because reasons, while they have no problems nerfing individual laser models so that they get useless unless boated.

I mean, c'mon, they were willing to link the gh of PPCs and gausses, yet they still don't want to link the biggest GH loophole ever with best convergence ever which is meds + larges combo. Because of that damn combo most meds and larges have to be weak individually, so they're not too OP when combined (but still OP, because if we nerfed vomit to not be OP, lasers would be useless in any other build). How many years will we have tons of nerfs and buffs messing with the balance but not fixing it, because the most crucial issue stays uncheched?

And OP: I don't like laser vomit. It' boring AF. One-click laserboats are the most simplistic and boring builds in the game. Now I hardly play at all because the game punishes me for not wanting to play boring builds all the time.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 26 October 2017 - 03:40 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeah because 12 ERML alpha novas, and 10 PPC assaults is real fun stuff

You just limit the meta game further with this and make every new mech a huge P2W fight on the forum.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 26 October 2017 - 04:05 AM.

[Bombast]

The Lighthouse, on 25 October 2017 - 09:48 PM, said:

Yeah, I am sorry man, but you REALLY gotta read entire article.

Ok. I did.

It's a pretty long ramble that lists commonly accepted problems with ghost heat, calls for its removal, than shrugs at the new balance with a 'who cares' attitude.

So pretty much exactly what I read when I skimmed it.

If you want to get rid of ghost heat, something has to replace it. You can't just tear it out and let the chips fall where they may. As crappy as Ghost Heat may be, it was put in the game for a reason.

Edited by Bombast, 26 October 2017 - 04:13 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

O.P admit it.

Your really after a job at P.G.I.

You want to impress them by coming up with an idea even worse the the current team.

Got to hand it to you, if that's the case you will fly by the interview.

Curccu, on 26 October 2017 - 03:15 AM, said:

PGI has stated that they will not add slow convergence because it would break hitreg --> they are unable to code it properly.

This really is the basic issue. lack of ability.

[Curccu]

Cathy, on 26 October 2017 - 04:21 AM, said:

This really is the basic issue. lack of ability.

Yep, not sure how hard it's really to combine this multihitbox thing, server authoritative hit calculation, and not instant convergency.

Personally I don't know/remember any other game having all these.

[JC Daxion]

You are right....


and then they need to bring back Energy Draw.. and get it working right to limit high alpha's. Most of this games balance issues are because of tons of hard points on some mechs leading to higher alphas


going off the old system if they made a 40 point ED cap, most builds in the lower end of the mechs would have no change. the heavies and assaults which are the ones that get the high alpha's would have them curbed a bit.. yet still have many of the popular builds untouched.

I have done some math on a system tweak that i think could really work, that goes along with doing what ghost heat does now, and curb high repeated alphas. You could still alpha, but not this 2-3 in a row crap.

to me, that would go a very long way to balancing mechs. especially all those that don't have hard point inflation.. and still let people use alpha as a tactic.

I've been meaning to make a specific post with all the numbers, and alpha combos that would still work and point out where they are under the current system, and what it would help curb that are now the big offenders with out nerfing the crap out of mechs movement for example.

[VanillaG]

SeventhSL, on 25 October 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

If we had an accuracy mechanic to trade off against alpha size then we could get rid of ghost heat.

One way to do that be to be to require locks for accuracy. You can only fire on a mech that you have targeted and there would be two types of locks:

• When you a have target lock you get two behaviors:
  
  • If you fire a single weapon or chainfire multiple weapons you get pinpoint accuracy to where you are aiming
    
  • If you alpha more than one weapon you get Streak bone targeting where each weapon is targeted to a different part of the mech.

• When you have a weapons lock, equivalent to the current missile lock, you get pinpoint accuracy regardless of the number of weapons being fired.

Edited by VanillaG, 26 October 2017 - 05:05 AM.

[Dr Hobo]

Curccu, on 26 October 2017 - 03:15 AM, said:

PGI has stated that they will not add slow convergence because it would break hitreg --> they are unable to code it properly.

I don't mean to bash PGI as much as I do(but at this point they have earned it). It can't really be an excuse anymore. All that does is make them sound incompetent,lazy,or a mixture of the two. Because convergence would fix *tons* of problems.

Because of mech sizes,you wouldn't have pinpoint 90 damage alphas that are scalpeling mechs apart. Light mechs could actually not require armor quirks,and smaller mechs would be made more viable again.

But I would think that PGI would have at least made an attempt to get some coders who understand CryEngine. Or find someone who has some knowledge to throw their way to help them out,even if it's just an outside contractor.

Then again,waaaaaay back when people were telling PGI avoid the Cryengine and use something else.I honestly think they probably picked it because Crytek was floundering and thus,the engine was pretty much free.

I also think a lot of people are getting tired of Heavy/Assault/Vomitflavorofthepatch/Alpha Warrior Online.

But anyway,I feel like im all over the board there.

If you start adding heat penalties,then I think you could limit boating and you could limit alpha warrioring. But then again,you'd have to redo almost all the maps to allow for more playstyles other than long range laser poking,and LRM raining.

*EDIT* I just thought of this too.

If you had proper convergence,you could actually roll back armor quirks(possibly into structure?) and then you could further limit alpha warrioring with heat penalties that don't only work at the redline.

If there was scaling heat penalties,like the mech slowing down,accuracy problems,longer weapon recharges,and eventual ammo bin explosions/engine failures,I think all of those combined would actually make for some interesting gameplay.

Edited by Dr Hobo, 26 October 2017 - 05:57 AM.

[Mechrophilia]

Increase the number of weapons firable before incurring ghost heat for the Inner Sphere only, and we have a deal.

[FantasticMrDark]

How about we just remove ghost heat and dust off Energy Draw? maybe this time have it be 1 damage = 1 energy (for everything thats not SRMs) that would streamline the entire system and not have it be a complicated mess.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

JediPanther, on 25 October 2017 - 08:44 PM, said:

Lets go back to all guass not having a charge up too. That was a great time for guass and mechs specifically sold and quirked for guass would be great again. No one used any other ac because no charge guass was 15 ppfd with no heat. Make hbk-gi great again.

Please dont, charge up makes this weapon fun for me. How about giving it some range back to bring it back to the 95% range of the erppc in the tabletop.

[Dr Hobo]

Cara Carcass, on 26 October 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Please dont, charge up makes this weapon fun for me. How about giving it some range back to bring it back to the 95% range of the erppc in the tabletop.

and give it its secondary effects to make it a viable alternative to LPLs.

[Mcgral18]

FantasticMrDark, on 26 October 2017 - 06:26 AM, said:

How about we just remove ghost heat and dust off Energy Draw? maybe this time have it be 1 damage = 1 energy (for everything thats not SRMs) that would streamline the entire system and not have it be a complicated mess.

Doesn't work, because damage isn't equal

Lasers aren't PPC, and missiles aren't Lasers

There's decreasing effectiveness in damage, and just 1:1 doesn't work



My largest issue with Ghost Heat Mk2 was, as the name implies...nothing changed
A lump amount of heat the moment you touch the trigger, and nothing else

Nerfed Brawlers hard, lasers could build around it.



I wouldn't hate it as much with a different penalty, be it a gradual over time heat increase (stopping cooling, making you GTFO if you Alpha), cooldown penalty, or something less...unfun than the same lump heat we've always had.

[Khobai]

you cant remove ghost heat without putting something else in its place

ghost heat might not stop everything, but it does stop a lot of crap that needs to be stopped

they just need to close the laser vomit loophole by linking large and medium laser types

yes its not ideal, but no one has come up with a good replacement for ghost heat.



and going from 8v8 to 12v12 without going from double to triple armor/structure is why mechs feel like theyre made of tissue paper now.

they increased the number of mechs by 50% without also increasing armor/structure by 50%. so of course mechs are going to die faster from the increased concentration of firepower.

they need to either go back to 8v8 or stay at 12v12 and give us triple armor/structure.

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2017 - 07:41 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

At this point I would rather they not change anything. Seems like big changes always make players quit but don't actually improve anything.

[Khobai]

Quote

At this point I would rather they not change anything. Seems like big changes always make players quit but don't actually improve anything.

except not changing anything is why players are quitting MWO

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

except not changing anything is why players are quitting MWO

The current heat system is not the reason behind that.

And if they are quitting because they are bad, that's not my problem. I would quit a game that after 5 years I still couldn't figure out too.

[Bud Crue]

I’ve come to accept ghost heat. I am pretty sure it isn’t going anywhere. If anything I think they will keep using it as their “go to” for tamping down problem mechs and problem builds (in an absurdly broad manner) and I don’t see that changing. Apropos what I would like to see is a more selective approach to its application to those problem mechs and problem builds.

Example: the Ghost heat linkage they added to Gauss and PPCs was (lets face it) directed to 3-4 mechs namely the Kodiak 3 (RIP), the Mad-IIC, the MK-II and the Night Gyr. Few if any other mechs were “problematic” in regard to gauss/PPC being perceived or in actuality “OP”. So instead of linking ALL Gauss and ALL PPC for ALL mechs in the entire game, how about instead just hitting specific mechs or even the precise weapons that are in fact problematic? Was Heavy Gauss and Snubs an issue? LPPCs and LGauss? No? Then don’t link them. Were Cataphtracts or Victors or the Kodiak 2 or an Ebon Jag a gauss/PPC over performer? No? Then don’t link them for those mechs or any other mechs that weren’t a problem. Apply ghost heat linking more selectively (based on tonnage and hardpoint height perhaps?) and I think you will increase build diversity and perhaps even see some now shelved mechs be brought out to play.

Same thing with medium laser weapons ghost heat limit between classes as well. Un-link them. Example: A Black Knight or a Grasshopper or even a Black Jack with 6ML and 2 or 3 MPL is not OP, its plenty and prohibitively hot even without Ghost heat. Maybe only apply the linkage to mechs with more than 10 energy hard points and over a certain tonnage...or something...anything than just the across the board application we have now.

Same thing with the recent linkage of UAC5s and regular AC5 (and other large weapons of this ilk). How many mechs were combining the two classes of weapons to avoid ghost heat? 2? 3? (Maulers, Annihilators...what else?) How about instead apply this link to just those mechs and only if those mechs are in fact “over performing”?

Finally, I would be WAY more forgiving with ghost heat on lighter mechs, and especially with range restricted weapons.