170 replies to this topic

[Vonbach]

If you remove ghost heat just remove IS mechs and get it over with.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

2 gauss + 6 er med laser on deathstrike

I didnt ask for deathstrike, i given you snv1 to tinker with...or is that just not to be touched?

Edited by davoodoo, 26 October 2017 - 06:15 PM.

[Dr Hobo]

Bombast, on 26 October 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

Most of what your complaining about is related to how accurate out 'mechwarriors' (Us) are. Even the worst player is better than the average Battletech mechwarrior, and moderately good players has a 0 modifer at least, if not a negative one. Combine that with how targeting works (Everything where you aim it), and bam - Why all the things your complaining about are in the game.

As long as people can hit a component on command, we need all the armor and decreased heat capacity we can get.

Psssst....convergence would help us get away from double armor,double structure AND ghost heat. Then...add in that hard point restriction,and BAM balance is starting to be achieved. We can get trudubs,AND true heatsinks.

Buuuut PGI doesn't know how to impliment it at this point without breaking the game

and I suspect MWO2 AND MW5 will have this very issue,thus making both games stale,boring,and easy. Judging by what we saw with the gameplay trailer anyway.

[Trissila]

Dr Hobo, on 26 October 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

Psssst....convergence would help us get away from double armor,double structure AND ghost heat. Then...add in that hard point restriction,and BAM balance is starting to be achieved. We can get trudubs,AND true heatsinks.

Buuuut PGI doesn't know how to impliment it at this point without breaking the game

and I suspect MWO2 AND MW5 will have this very issue,thus making both games stale,boring,and easy. Judging by what we saw with the gameplay trailer anyway.

Making weapons not go to the same crosshair won't make the game any harder. It'll just add an extra step or two when alpha-ing, just like ghost heat does now with builds firing part of their alpha, then at exactly 0.5 seconds later firing the the rest. It'll add fractions of a second to a properly-built 'mech's alpha time, and players running bad bracket builds and/or standing out in the open will still get stomped.

[JC Daxion]

Mcgral18, on 26 October 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

I wouldn't hate it as much with a different penalty, be it a gradual over time heat increase (stopping cooling, making you GTFO if you Alpha), cooldown penalty, or something less...unfun than the same lump heat we've always had.

I'll post up something soonish about this whole thing.. I think it could work with some slight changes to the system.

[Shifty McSwift]

Trissila, on 26 October 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

Even with all of this, apparently "the TTK is too low". At what point do we just admit that certain people don't actually want to play a Battletech game where players have direct control of their actions instead of constantly having to pray the dice come up right?

For some people, like myself, MWO is the main if not the only exposure to the battletech universe. And it has changed a lot over time, with everything being in a potential state of flux, liable to be changed at any moment. As one of those casual noobs, I have mostly enjoyed the ride they have taken us on, and can sort of see some of the intentions (failed or successful), I have no issues with them continuing to mess with variables, particularly considering the new weapon patch, but as a noob like that I really just don't get a lot of these kinds of sentiments, don't understand what you mean.

As much as the game has changed elements like extended TTK and twist tanking etc have always been a staple of the gameplay. And it makes sense to have longer potential fights like that, considering in normal games you only have 1 spawn and a finite pool of health, they have to somewhat justify making people wait so damn long, usually for what might be one short fight, increasingly so with less TTK, so it is an important variable for the game.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 26 October 2017 - 11:09 PM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Trissila, on 26 October 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

But my point is that unless they up-armor torsos into the stratosphere, it's not going to change much. And if they do? We'll just start aiming for legs. Armor all over the 'mechs is already TWICE what it is supposed to be, and that hasn't helped much, now has it?

That's really the core thing here. MWO is the most drawn-out that Mechwarrior has ever been, in terms of battle damage, but that's still not enough for some people.

'Mechs have double armor/structure compared to what they're supposed to have.

Heatsinks are completely awful compared to what they're supposed to be, with DHS offering a mere 1.4 dissipation instead of 2.0.

Ghost Heat artificially neuters the most efficient builds, so the builds in use are lower than what 'mechs should be capable of. Under standard BT rules, a GaussPeeps build (2xERPPC, 2xGauss) with 16 DHS (10 in the engine, plus 6 mounted) is heat-neutral; in the Heat Phase it generates and dissipates 32 points of heat if it fires everything. In MWO, this 'mech slags instantly if it pulls all four triggers at once.

Even with all of this, apparently "the TTK is too low". At what point do we just admit that certain people don't actually want to play a Battletech game where players have direct control of their actions instead of constantly having to pray the dice come up right?

Dude, TTK is not about individual numbers. It's about how fast is to die on the battlefield

Yes, they buff and buff the armor, but then they add a patch that slows down most big mechs and pushes usable alpha numbers by about 20 points up at the 'cost' of duration, that is actually nonexistent, because they just slowed down all your targets, thus heavily nerfed their capacity to shield, effectivelly buffing ability of all lasers to do pinpoint damage and removing the supposed downside of the new long-duration lasers. At the end of the day, TTK for big mechs goes way down

I want durability, I use the commando. Commando can take several shots and live, heavies and assaults now usually die after 2 reasonably well placed shots, 3 tops.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 27 October 2017 - 12:45 AM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

obviously hence why I said they need to armor up torso sections more

Mechs that mount weapons in their torsos are already advantaged. If you want people to take the time shooting off arms and tearing mechs apart limb by limb, and your solution is to make torsos tougher to incentivise people to shoot arms, then you're just making life harder for mechs that rely on their arms. Mechs with torsos mounts, already dominant, are now tankier, and mechs with arms are now comparatively easier to dispatch. What do you do, make torsos tougher for only mechs with arm weapons? That seems silly to me, and doesn't make logical sense.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Tarogato, on 27 October 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

Mechs that mount weapons in their torsos are already advantaged. If you want people to take the time shooting off arms and tearing mechs apart limb by limb, and your solution is to make torsos tougher to incentivise people to shoot arms, then you're just making life harder for mechs that rely on their arms. Mechs with torsos mounts, already dominant, are now tankier, and mechs with arms are now comparatively easier to dispatch. What do you do, make torsos tougher for only mechs with arm weapons? That seems silly to me, and doesn't make logical sense.

That's another never addressed problem. There should be benefits for using weapons in arms, i.e. less heat generated (same reason extremities are easier to get frostbite). Of course, I would add that advante AFTER addressing current, overly liberal heat management caused by clan heatsinks and heat-lowering skills.

That would be a great balancing mechanic - the longer the arms (=lower arm hardpoints), the less heat generated. Mechs with high arm stumps could have little to no bonus, mechs with long dragging humanoid arms could get a big bonus. With properly restricting heat system, this could be a mechanic limiting bigger alphas for mechs with lower hardpoints, while forcing lower alphas on high torso mounts.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 27 October 2017 - 05:39 AM.

[davoodoo]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 27 October 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

Of course, I would add that advante AFTER addressing current, overly liberal heat management caused by clan heatsinks and heat-lowering skills.

this is harshest heat management in entire mechwarrior series...hell tt heat neutral mechs run at 30% heat efficiency in mwo.

Edited by davoodoo, 27 October 2017 - 07:04 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I still think one of the biggest problems is that taking out a side torso automatically rips off the corresponding arm, which makes side torsos good to shoot even against mechs like the Supernova, Whale, or Warhawk which probably have all or most their firepower in the arms.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2017 - 07:05 AM.

[Trissila]

Shifty McSwift, on 26 October 2017 - 10:38 PM, said:

For some people, like myself, MWO is the main if not the only exposure to the battletech universe. And it has changed a lot over time, with everything being in a potential state of flux, liable to be changed at any moment. As one of those casual noobs, I have mostly enjoyed the ride they have taken us on, and can sort of see some of the intentions (failed or successful), I have no issues with them continuing to mess with variables, particularly considering the new weapon patch, but as a noob like that I really just don't get a lot of these kinds of sentiments, don't understand what you mean.

As much as the game has changed elements like extended TTK and twist tanking etc have always been a staple of the gameplay. And it makes sense to have longer potential fights like that, considering in normal games you only have 1 spawn and a finite pool of health, they have to somewhat justify making people wait so damn long, usually for what might be one short fight, increasingly so with less TTK, so it is an important variable for the game.

I encourage you to track down copies of the earlier Mechwarrior games and play them, if MWO is your only exposure thus far. The experience should be enlightening.

Like, people complain about laser boating now, as if this is some new horrible thing. It isn't. Laser boats were the best 'mechs in MW2 as well, for various reasons. But getting to the issue of TTK... in MWO, take say a Timberwolf, give it 4xcSRM6 and 4xcMPL, and go fight a heavy 'mech with it solo. It will probably take you at least 30 seconds to kill them, likely closer to a minute if they're actually using terrain and such. In MW2? You would two-shot them. And then you'd do it to the next one immediately after, because that sort of build would be effectively heat-neutral if you filled the rest of the space with DHS and didn't hold down the trigger on the lasers (Pulse Lasers in MW2 were basically laser machine guns, unlike the models we have now that are just shorter-burn lasers that still have cooldowns).

You take a Nova and give it 8xCERML, not only can you EASILY keep that thing cool enough to fire almost on cooldown, but if you aim for the legs of something like a Jenner that's got close-together legs, you will one-shot it as you take off both legs with the same shot. You can two-shot another Nova if you hit it at least moderately in the CT (these specifics are because the first Clan Wolf mission has you up against a Jenner, a Firemoth, and a Nova).

It's a matter of perspective, really. If you've never played a BT/MW game before MWO and you went into MWO expecting big, stompy robots that can just tank damage for years, then yeah I guess the TTK is "low" from that perspective. But MWO is actually the HIGHEST the TTK has ever been for Mechwarrior, by a HUGE margin -- MW3 killed a 'mech as soon as it lost one leg. MW2 mobility-killed them; after losing a leg the 'mech could not move at all, which of course was a death sentence.

[MischiefSC]

In TT a 12 v 12 might last 20 or even 30 rounds..... which is 200 - 300 seconds, or less than 5 minutes.

TTK in tabletop is lower than any computer game about battletech has ever been save possibly the first Mechwarrior game with the terrible AI where you could just take a locust and shoot mechs through the back because they ignored you if you were behind them.

Just removing GH and saying 'Well, balance will be absolute ****, so what' is really fighting to be one of the worst suggestions I've heard for this game and I've heard some truly, truly terrible suggestions. Yes, there's better balance approaches than GH but at least it does what it needs to do. We have liquid metal mech customization and that means you've got to have something in place to prevent min/maxing.

[davoodoo]

MischiefSC, on 27 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

In TT a 12 v 12 might last 20 or even 30 rounds..... which is 200 - 300 seconds, or less than 5 minutes.

Now double armor and structure on everything and you added at least additional 200-300 seconds, most likely more(due to no ac20 oneshotting lights or headshots, overheating, ammo shortages and so on)

10 minutes is longer than our current mwo matches despite lengthy positioning and im talking matches not chasing lone shadowcats on hpg walls.

Edited by davoodoo, 27 October 2017 - 11:57 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Trissila, on 27 October 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

I encourage you to track down copies of the earlier Mechwarrior games and play them, if MWO is your only exposure thus far. The experience should be enlightening.

Like, people complain about laser boating now, as if this is some new horrible thing. It isn't. Laser boats were the best 'mechs in MW2 as well, for various reasons. But getting to the issue of TTK... in MWO, take say a Timberwolf, give it 4xcSRM6 and 4xcMPL, and go fight a heavy 'mech with it solo. It will probably take you at least 30 seconds to kill them, likely closer to a minute if they're actually using terrain and such. In MW2? You would two-shot them. And then you'd do it to the next one immediately after, because that sort of build would be effectively heat-neutral if you filled the rest of the space with DHS and didn't hold down the trigger on the lasers (Pulse Lasers in MW2 were basically laser machine guns, unlike the models we have now that are just shorter-burn lasers that still have cooldowns).

You take a Nova and give it 8xCERML, not only can you EASILY keep that thing cool enough to fire almost on cooldown, but if you aim for the legs of something like a Jenner that's got close-together legs, you will one-shot it as you take off both legs with the same shot. You can two-shot another Nova if you hit it at least moderately in the CT (these specifics are because the first Clan Wolf mission has you up against a Jenner, a Firemoth, and a Nova).

It's a matter of perspective, really. If you've never played a BT/MW game before MWO and you went into MWO expecting big, stompy robots that can just tank damage for years, then yeah I guess the TTK is "low" from that perspective. But MWO is actually the HIGHEST the TTK has ever been for Mechwarrior, by a HUGE margin -- MW3 killed a 'mech as soon as it lost one leg. MW2 mobility-killed them; after losing a leg the 'mech could not move at all, which of course was a death sentence.

When it comes to most single player games I just can't anymore in general. I played small amounts of mechwarrior games in the past so had a general understanding of the idea, more than just big stompy robots, which I mean, it is that, but also the working to build your mechs (and playing them out) side to it, that is and always has been a fun part of it.

I just never went with it to the stage I did with other games etc, but playing it against people in teamfights, is conceptually (and often can be currently) really fun, the kind of survival rates I am used to are specific to MWO for sure.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

davoodoo, on 27 October 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

this is harshest heat management in entire mechwarrior series...hell tt heat neutral mechs run at 30% heat efficiency in mwo.

How much time does a round/turn in TT last? 10 seconds? If yes, anything that can cool down in 10 seconds after an alpha is heat neutral in accordance to TT. That is, almost every mech in MWO is heat neutral by TT standards.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 27 October 2017 - 01:34 PM.

[davoodoo]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 27 October 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

How much time does a round/turn in TT last? 10 seconds? If yes, anything that can cool down in 10 seconds after an alpha is heat neutral in accordance to TT. That is, almost every mech in MWO is heat neutral by TT standards.

Sure, lets go that way.
1)Weapons also fire every cooling cycle in tt.
2)Dhs in mwo dissipate only 1.5 point of heat per tt turn instead of regular 2
3)mechs in mwo take longer than 10s to completely vent heat despite having over 15 dhs
4)lower heat capacity than tt due to dhs only adding 1.5 instead of 2 points.

Every viable laservomit mech in mwo would be overcooled in tt.

Edited by davoodoo, 27 October 2017 - 02:03 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

Sigh, as I suspected, people simply do not talk about the MOST important reason why ghost heat should be removed.

You guys can talk about balance for all day, TTK and lore stuffs, but until we begin to talk about the biggest elephant in the room, this game will continue to decline.

[Kroete]

About ttk and armor:

We have 2 to 5 lower coolddowns then in tt (10 seconds cooldown in tt, but 2-5 sec cooldown in mwo),
we have pinpoint aiming (you need around 6 times more hits to destroy a centertorso in tt then in mwo),
we have only double armor.

Still anyone asking why we have low ttk?

[terrycloth]

Just force chain-fire on all mechs. Then you don't need ghost heat.