19 replies to this topic

[BigScwerl]

Following the Nerf of the Clan Small Pulse Laser, I'm curious if PGI has collected any statistics on how much/if at all/ this weapon is being used. Most people I play with, and myself, replaced these with something else nearly immediately after the patch, and I havent thought of using them since. The Tonnage trade for a 1T weapon is just not good. IMHO. from a clanner perspective.

Maybe the nerf was not that bad? The cooldown is only 0.3s more than a micropulse.

Or maybe in the search of balance, PGI just nerfed them into oblivion so nobody would use them anymore... which seems to be a long standing PGI tradition:

"nerf your last mechpack, buy new meckpack nao to be gud"

I would love to see the statistics on CSPLs to have seen their numbers on builds plummet to none at all.

Of course you all have opinions on this subject, so please weigh in.

Do you feel the the nerf was warranted?

were CSPL OP prior?

was the nerf too harsh?

[Toothless]

The general consensus was that it was too severe. A nerf was warranted, but not the typical heavy handed PGI one that it received.

[davoodoo]

ersl got hit more 4.3s total cd while cerll have 5.1s and is llas have 4.2

[FupDup]

Don't forget about how the IS SPL got nerfed at the same time, because PGI has a hard time nerfing or buffing one faction without applying the same exact nerf of buff to the opposite faction.

It's also quite telling that the [ER] Medium Lasers got nerfed for both factions some time after both SPL's got hit. Gee, I wonder what properties these weapons have in common...

davoodoo, on 26 October 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

ersl got hit more 4.3s total cd while cerll have 5.1s and is llas have 4.2

Same cooldown as the Clan LPL,
Same duration as the IS ERLL,
And slightly more heat than the IS ML. Such is the life of the Clan ER Small Laser.

Edited by FupDup, 26 October 2017 - 09:40 AM.

[N a p e s]

Ya, the nerf hit them too hard. Nerfing the damage by 1 point down to 5 would have been OK. They're already very short ranged weapons and weigh twice as much as the ERSL. Putting them both at 5 points of damage and distiniguishing other stats like beam duration, cooldown and heat would have been fine.

The 10 SPL Nova was one of my favorite mechs but, I never bother with it anymore.

[Tordin]

FupDup, on 26 October 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Don't forget about how the IS SPL got nerfed at the same time, because PGI has a hard time nerfing or buffing one faction without applying the same exact nerf of buff to the opposite faction.

It's also quite telling that the [ER] Medium Lasers got nerfed for both factions some time after both SPL's got hit. Gee, I wonder what properties these weapons have in common...


Same cooldown as the Clan LPL,
Same duration as the IS ERLL,
And slightly more heat than the IS ML. Such is the life of the Clan ER Small Laser.

Its maddening, all of it. Call me blind, but I dont see the logic, besides butchering small weapon boating. Which are one of the good ways to play some lights if not the only way to use a particular chassi right.
Im worried/ critizising such changes and Im not even an energy weapons fan. Missiles and Ballistics are a bit more fun and satisfying to use... well besides the neutered lurms and not least atms/ murms...

Edited by Tordin, 26 October 2017 - 09:43 AM.

[FupDup]

Tordin, on 26 October 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

Its maddening, all of it. Call me blind, but I dont see the logic, besides butchering small weapon boating. Which are one of the good ways to play some lights if not the only way to use a particular chassi right.

That basically is the logic being used. PGI's weapon analysis is placing too high of a value on tonnage and too low of a value on other properties.

[davoodoo]

Well its madness

clan
erll 3.75cd 1.35 duration 5.1 total
ermed 4.5cd 1.25 duration 5.75 total
ersl 3.2cd 1.1 duration 4.3 total
is
llas 3.1cd 1.1 duration 4.2 total
medlas 3.5cd 0.9 duration 4.4 total
slas 2.25cd 0.75 duration 3 total
erll 3.4cd 1.1 duration 4.5 total
ermed 4cd 0.9 duration 4.9 total
ersl 2.75cd 0.75 duration 3.5 total

mediums longer cd than larges.

Edited by davoodoo, 26 October 2017 - 09:45 AM.

[kapusta11]

In my experience cSPLs were as good as SRMs against mechs with big hitboxes, only marginally better against mechs with small hiboxes and both were inferior to longer range loadouts. IMO the nerf was unwarranted.

I'm not a comp player though so if there was some secret cSPL meta wrecking everthing (pre nerf Kodiaks, Night Gyrs, HBK IICs etc) in its wake I wouldn't know and would find it hard to believe if there was such meta.

Edited by kapusta11, 26 October 2017 - 10:18 AM.

[MadRover]

kapusta11, on 26 October 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

In my experience cSPLs were as good as SRMs against mechs with big hitboxes, only marginally better against mechs with small hiboxes and both were inferior to longer range loadouts. IMO the nerf was unwarranted.

I'm not a comp player though so if there was some secret cSPL meta wrecking everthing (pre nerf Kodiaks, Night Gyrs, HBK IICs etc) in its wake I wouldn't know and would find it hard to believe if there was such meta.

Pre nerf cSPLs you were able to do 6points of damage which is the equal of a isML for pretty much similar ranges. It was the go to ACH easy mode build with ECM. So an ACH using 6cSPLs was 36points worth of alpha damage.

Now it’s been runned down to 24points of alpha for excessive duration and cd. 4.5 or 5points worth of damage per cSPL would’ve been perfect but PGI is infamous for using the nerf bomb on things and blast them to oblivion and uselessness.

[FupDup]

kapusta11, on 26 October 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

In my experience cSPLs were as good as SRMs against mechs with big hitboxes, only marginally better against mechs with small hiboxes and both were inferior to longer range loadouts. IMO the nerf was unwarranted.

I'm not a comp player though so if there was some secret cSPL meta wrecking everthing (pre nerf Kodiaks, Night Gyrs, HBK IICs etc) in its wake I wouldn't know and would find it hard to believe if there was such meta.

It was basically a matter of being the overall most efficient weapon within that specific bracket by a decent margin, even if it was restricted to only that bracket and completely useless outside of that bracket.

PGI judged it relative to its bracket rather than relative to the entire ecosystem.

To be fair I could've understood a slight nudge down to its power level, instead of the Hammer of Paul™ flattening it into the ground.

[panzer1b]

kapusta11, on 26 October 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

In my experience cSPLs were as good as SRMs against mechs with big hitboxes, only marginally better against mechs with small hiboxes and both were inferior to longer range loadouts. IMO the nerf was unwarranted.

I'm not a comp player though so if there was some secret cSPL meta wrecking everthing (pre nerf Kodiaks, Night Gyrs, HBK IICs etc) in its wake I wouldn't know and would find it hard to believe if there was such meta.

Im not uber comp or anything myself, but from my experience the old cSPL was the KING of brawling clan side for a few reasons. It had good alfa strike, burn duration, and absurd heat efficiency (2 damage/heat ratio which let you get good sustained DPS out of the base 10 heatsinks in the engine). That and they were more or less PPFLD (like current IS MPLs), minimal burn duration coupled with perfect convergence, you could dump 90+% into any desired component on most targets regardless of how well they twisted or tried to evade the fire. Ofc they had one huge flaw, which was short range, but on a fast mech, especially one that had ECM, it was a no-brainer weapon that would outperform every possible alternative. Even SRMs didnt come anywhere near the cSPL since they spread damage everywhere on anything that wasnt direwhale sized and at super short range, were too heavy to use well on the ACH, and just lacked killing/finishing ability.

I completely agreed with the fact that the old cSPL was OP since it really did obsolete everything else on clan if the mech could effectively get into range to use them, but PGI went all out PGI on us and reduced the thing to potato tier right beside LRMs. Yeah ive seen a handful of niche builds where the cSPL still works, but in general you are almost always better off with something else if you want to brawl, SRMs, MGs, hell even the HMLs are probably a better weapon then the new cSPL.

[Khobai]

6 damage for 3 heat was ABSURD

CSPL definitely needed to be nerfed, its just PGI went overboard

5 damage for 3 heat probably wouldve been fine. 4 is just too low.

the way PGI balances, they would rather have a weapon not get used at all, than be overpowered. they did the same thing with PPCs many years ago. instead of fine tuning they just smash it with a hammer.

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2017 - 02:24 PM.

[SeventhSL]

The CSPL nerf was defiantly warrented. 6 points of damage was just crazy and allowed Clan to beat IS at their own brawl game.

Given I basically don't use CSPL anymore, I feel the nerf went to far. Would love to see the stats though.

[Vxheous]

At this point, since both Clan ERML and MPL do 7 damage.....they should do the same for Clan ERSL and SPL and match them at 5 damage.

[Ted Maul]

Now. I don't want to be a **** here but reading these forums is becoming increasingly tiresome as it seems to be a constant stream of vitriol and bile against PGI for every. *******. Decision. They. Make. Some of this may be warranted to a degree but, Jesus Christ, is this kind of unhelpful, obnoxious whining really helpful for anyone, not least newer players looking for reasons to actually play the game / engage with the forums and community (e.g. check out fun mech builds or experience even a tiny sliver of positivity)?

The balance isn't perfect, sure, but there must be a more constructive way of doing this than a million threads that can basically be paraphrased into "clan OP lol" "laser nerfs 2 far lol" "y is FW brokun lol!!" "Neva preordering agen mech rms r too low! Lol"

I don't have the answers but what I do know is that, if I was a PGI employee, and my job was trawling the forum for feedback but all I saw was the kind of aforementioned garbage I'd skip straight over it.

And then people wonder why the community is drying up...

[Trenchbird]

The aftermath was mostly whining. A lot of whining.

[Bilbo999]

Ted Maul, on 26 October 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

Now. I don't want to be a **** here but reading these forums is becoming increasingly tiresome as it seems to be a constant stream of vitriol and bile against PGI for every. *******. Decision. They. Make. Some of this may be warranted to a degree but, Jesus Christ, is this kind of unhelpful, obnoxious whining really helpful for anyone, not least newer players looking for reasons to actually play the game / engage with the forums and community (e.g. check out fun mech builds or experience even a tiny sliver of positivity)?

The balance isn't perfect, sure, but there must be a more constructive way of doing this than a million threads that can basically be paraphrased into "clan OP lol" "laser nerfs 2 far lol" "y is FW brokun lol!!" "Neva preordering agen mech rms r too low! Lol"

I don't have the answers but what I do know is that, if I was a PGI employee, and my job was trawling the forum for feedback but all I saw was the kind of aforementioned garbage I'd skip straight over it.

And then people wonder why the community is drying up...

The forums have always been this way. Not as much traffic nowadays to drown out some of the noise though.

[chucklesMuch]

Were OP... Now collect dust... middle ground would be nice.

[Xetelian]

Jump sniping was a huge problem and most people can agree with that, so it deserved some nerfing but instead they went to the most extreme they could and made JJs and big mechs not worth taking for the most part.
The PPFLD meta is alive but less alive than it was a year or so ago, less alive than the PPC syncing days of yore, which they took out the nerf hammer and made PPCs hardly worth taking.
The laser vomit meta was driven by nerfs to the PPFLD meta and now they are taking out the nerf hammer and destroying lasers to the point of mediocrity.



I think PGI can't differentiate between their gaming having a meta and their game having a cancerous meta and they certainly don't know how to fine tune the balancing to nudge people out of a certain play style while rewarding them for using something else.


I'm sure that Paul is a great guy and everyone at PGI loves him but I think he made some bad decisions that have severely hampered this game. I am also sure the new balance underlord is a great guy but we're seeing the same exact issue with him that we have seen from previous balance attempts.



Your mechs reticle should have sway and trouble holding position while falling, and then Jump Jets could be brought back up to a reasonable level of lift without help from the skill tree.

They could raise the heat and durations of lasers to lower their overall DPS instead of lowering the damage. The cSPL could have had its heat increased and its cool down increased and its damage lowered by 1 to shave down the effectiveness.