147 replies to this topic

[Cizjut]

8v8 is already the competitive scene in the game, right?
8v8 makes the most sense since it raises the TTK and forces players to be more important in the team rather than just another grunt adding to the team alpha strike right?
Round based matches would make the game more fun by taking more bang for your buck/queue out of a matchmaking, right?
Since it's the competitive scene which MWarriors want to get on to it makes sense to test out balance in such format, right?

So 8v8 in quickplay/ranked when?

[Bombast]

Soon^TM

[Dimento Graven]

Cizjut, on 30 October 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

8v8 is already the competitive scene in the game, right?
8v8 makes the most sense since it raises the TTK and forces players to be more important in the team rather than just another grunt adding to the team alpha strike right?
Round based matches would make the game more fun by taking more bang for your buck/queue out of a matchmaking, right?
Since it's the competitive scene which MWarriors want to get on to it makes sense to test out balance in such format, right?

So 8v8 in quickplay/ranked when?

Never. All of your statements are either incorrect or ignorant assumptions, and smack of elitist perspective.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 30 October 2017 - 01:58 PM.

[Cizjut]

Dimento Graven, on 30 October 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Never. All of your statements are either incorrect or ignorant assumptions, and smack of elitist perspective.

What a distasteful display of petulant fartism. Don't post.

[Dimento Graven]

Cizjut, on 30 October 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

What a distasteful display of petulant fartism. Don't post.

<sigh>Ok little lady, let's take it from the top:

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8v8 is already the competitive scene in the game, right?

And? What's good for competitive play isn't automatically good for the rest of the MWO player base.

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8v8 makes the most sense since it raises the TTK and forces players to be more important in the team rather than just another grunt adding to the team alpha strike right?

These are all baseless assumptions. 8v8 in the quick play solo and group queues is just 4 less players per side, period. TTK will still be the same, as the same idiot potatoes who insist on running out into open field will be just as focused as they were before, the only difference 4 less 'mechs are going to make is about 1 extra second of life.

As far as 'forcing importance' of each player, BOTH SIDES will have the same number of players, and over all will have the same level of importance now.

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Round based matches would make the game more fun by taking more bang for your buck/queue out of a matchmaking, right?

You'll have to elaborate on this. The more I read the less it makes any kind of sense.

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Since it's the competitive scene which MWarriors want to get on to it makes sense to test out balance in such format, right?

It seems you're making the elitist assumption that every player wants to get into the competitive scene. I can assure you that is not the case. If that's not the point you're trying to make, elaborate your point.

We had 8v8 for a LONG time, there were just as many stomps and players died as quickly then as they do now. Having 4 less players won't make a potato any less of a potato.

In my experience having 12v12 adds additional level of strategy and tactics not available with fewer players on the board. For the vast majority of the player base who aren't competitive players, 8v8 will be boring and accelerate the player diaspora we're suffering now.

Personally, I'd rather PGI invested money into an advert campaign ala: WoT, WoWS, etc. that we've seen for years, to get increase and keep a more consistent influx of new players the player base.

Spoke to someone who recently started playing this game, he'd found out about it accidentally. Never saw a Steam ad, never saw a pop-up while on another site, never read an article in a gamer rage.

If no one knows you're offering a service, you're not going to be creating new business.

PGI is skating by on the nostalgia that a lot of us have for the BT IP, but considering what's been happening to the player base over the last few months, it's beginning to look like they've pretty much spent it.

Making the game that much more boring by reducing the options for play will just accelerate the current player exodus, nothing more.

[Khobai]

they need to bring 8v8 back for quickplay at least

faction warfare can stay 12v12

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We had 8v8 for a LONG time, there were just as many stomps and players died as quickly then as they do now. Having 4 less players won't make a potato any less of a potato.

the point of 8v8 isnt to make the potatos on your team less potato. the point is that it allows the good players to carry their team better.

because you only have to kill 8 enemies by yourself instead of 12. thats much easier.

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In my experience having 12v12 adds additional level of strategy and tactics not available with fewer players on the board

it doesnt add any additional strategy or tactics because the maps are so small and lances arnt forced to split up.

all it does is promote deathballing, static camping, and gunlines. 12v12 is largely responsible for the game being in such a sorry state. which is why comp play is 8v8 not 12v12. and why PGI has even said they might go back to 8v8 for quickplay. they know 12v12 sucks.

8v8 is far more strategic/tactical because it allows brawlers to close more easily due to weaker gunlines so it promotes more varied styles of play.

Edited by Khobai, 30 October 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[Bigbacon]

hopefully never

[Dimento Graven]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

they need to bring 8v8 back for quickplay at least

I disagree. the 12v12 quick play is MUCH more fun than 8v8 was.

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the point of 8v8 isnt to make the potatos on your team less potato. the point is that it allows the good players to carry their team better.

Then PGI needs to invest in advertising so that we can have a more consistent influx of new players so that the player base can be built up and the ranking mechanic can be more properly tuned to keep potatoes in their own tiers.

8v8 can only go so far, and very quickly afterwards, the population will decline to the point you'll be back where you started, trying to compensate for too many potatoes on your side of the map.

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because you only have to kill 8 enemies by yourself instead of 12. thats much easier.

Ah, I see, the "Rambozo" attitude: "I should be able to run off by myself while the rest of the team acts as my meat shield while I go out and, using my l33t sk1llz, kill all the enemies."

The most horrible of reasons for 8v8, yet.

Yeah, I know it's WAY easier to kill 8 players by yourself than it is to kill 12, that's one of the TOP reasons why 12v12 is BETTER than 8v8.

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it doesnt add any additional strategy or tactics because the maps are so small and lances arnt forced to split up.

I guess we're not playing the same game then.

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all it does is promote deathballing, static camping, and gunlines.

Like that wasn't what 8v8 was? An 8 man death ball is STILL a death ball. Static camping with 8 players is STILL static camping, gun lines are STILL gun lines with only 8 players...

Actually with 12v12 you can have flankers, having a few 'mechs flank and turn an enemy line away from the main group is a more reasonable strategy in 12v12 than 8v8, because in 8v8, as soon as the flankers showed up the SMART teams knew that the force in front of them was down those 'mechs and it was best to charge them.

[Khobai]

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Like that wasn't what 8v8 was?

it wasnt. gunlines werent nearly as strong in 8v8. you only had 8 mechs that could focus fire, not 12. thats a third less concentrated firepower.

that meant it was much easier for brawlers to close the distance gap. because there was less focus fire and they didnt die as quickly to gunlines.

which led to more varied builds. not just long range poking builds.


light mechs and medium mechs were also stronger in 8v8 because they were a higher % of their team's overall tonnage. in 12v12, light mechs and medium mechs dont have nearly as strong of a role as they did in 8v8. lights and mediums are struggling right now to compete on equal footing with heavies/assaults.

again that led to more varied gameplay.


8v8 > 12v12

so when we inevitably go back to 8v8, I guess youll just have to deal with it.

Edited by Khobai, 30 October 2017 - 02:56 PM.

[Cizjut]

Dimento Graven, on 30 October 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

<sigh>Ok little lady, let's take it from the top:

And? What's good for competitive play isn't automatically good for the rest of the MWO player base.

These are all baseless assumptions. 8v8 in the quick play solo and group queues is just 4 less players per side, period. TTK will still be the same, as the same idiot potatoes who insist on running out into open field will be just as focused as they were before, the only difference 4 less 'mechs are going to make is about 1 extra second of life.

As far as 'forcing importance' of each player, BOTH SIDES will have the same number of players, and over all will have the same level of importance now.

You'll have to elaborate on this. The more I read the less it makes any kind of sense.

It seems you're making the elitist assumption that every player wants to get into the competitive scene. I can assure you that is not the case. If that's not the point you're trying to make, elaborate your point.

We had 8v8 for a LONG time, there were just as many stomps and players died as quickly then as they do now. Having 4 less players won't make a potato any less of a potato.

In my experience having 12v12 adds additional level of strategy and tactics not available with fewer players on the board. For the vast majority of the player base who aren't competitive players, 8v8 will be boring and accelerate the player diaspora we're suffering now.

Personally, I'd rather PGI invested money into an advert campaign ala: WoT, WoWS, etc. that we've seen for years, to get increase and keep a more consistent influx of new players the player base.

Spoke to someone who recently started playing this game, he'd found out about it accidentally. Never saw a Steam ad, never saw a pop-up while on another site, never read an article in a gamer rage.

If no one knows you're offering a service, you're not going to be creating new business.

PGI is skating by on the nostalgia that a lot of us have for the BT IP, but considering what's been happening to the player base over the last few months, it's beginning to look like they've pretty much spent it.

Making the game that much more boring by reducing the options for play will just accelerate the current player exodus, nothing more.

WOW those are a LOT of baseless assumptions, even the "ur elitist" one

Seems like we both have a lot of assumptions. Why not we get the 8v8 right now and test by ourselves and see what comes up?

Sorry for getting under your skin. I didn't know it was this thin, and didn't meant to make you feel threatened in any way good man.
But coming back to the point:

Let me ask you something. What is the bread and butter of MWO? If this was Quake, you would say it's Deathmatch or Team Deathmatch. If this was League of Legends, it would be Summoner's Rift, 5v5, tank, support, carry, mage and brawler.
Is 12v12 the bread and butter we always wanted in MWO? Was the game designed this way first? we know it wasn't, it was dying and added the third lance to keep the queues down.

12v12 is a lot of cannons aiming into a single direction. It raises the importance of the individual rather than being a single grunt. Also that raises the TTK. But it's been years floating around the idea that we should go back to 8v8, and would gladly test that with pubs and see.

******** gonna ****. That doesn't change and has nothing to do with anything disscussed ever. And the diaspora of players is happening anyways because the game is and always will be fun at its core but not enough. And it's not enough because the mechvsmech interactions are good, but team vs team in an scenario are poorly thought and always have balance problems and a core problem that is "we don't know what to do with the game."

So why the 8v8 is important if it's the competitive scene? Why did they chose to make an 8v8 the competitive one? I do not have an answer to be certain, but I want to participate in that. I have assumptions though, which are in the OP, and would like to discuss them with experienced players. In fact, I would like to go competitive too, that would be cool, and not only would help to pinpoint effective changes to all the game systems, but also would focus the whole mess of the development which doesn't really knows where it wants to be. That's why I believe the 8v8 should be considered fast, and why you should care.

As for advertisements it's not gonna happen, otherwise PGI would have already done it. They would benefit from word of mouth, but first there has to be something to talk about, and that would be a competitive scene, which the game doesn't have. Also the FP mode would benefit too from it.

As for round based it's simple as why any other game does round based matches. It makes them exciting and the first one gives feedback to the second and third one, where players have tried and measured their opponents. Also extends the gameplay time naturally and doesn't end the experience abruptly. Some people do not like this part of MWO where you couldn't test yourself entirely. That is a personal point of view, it's merely a suggestion, as everything I posted here.

[Appogee]

I don't believe 8v8 would change anything... other than the CBills we earn per match.

Reduced, of course.

[Cizjut]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

it wasnt. gunlines werent nearly as strong in 8v8. you only had 8 mechs that could focus fire, not 12. thats a third less concentrated firepower.

that meant it was much easier for brawlers to close the distance gap. because there was less focus fire and they didnt die as quickly to gunlines.

which led to more varied builds. not just long range poking builds.


light mechs and medium mechs were also stronger in 8v8 because they were a higher % of their team's overall tonnage. in 12v12, light mechs and medium mechs dont have nearly as strong of a role as they did in 8v8. lights and mediums are struggling right now to compete on equal footing with heavies/assaults.

again that led to more varied gameplay.

I agree with you. 12v12 is a little too crowded. The best matches i've had have been in 4v4 actually, since I get to know my lancemates and work together more tightly. The fights are more cutthroat and close and personal, since there's no backup and your brawl or tactic has to be do or die.

As for the deathballing goes then yes, it would decrease it by a THIRD. We could even start to see some "shitmechs" out of the garbage bin and watch them in play again, like the Gargoyle for fast hit and runs, and not for the laughing stock and having no ammo after a single skirmish.

I get that some players have invested ridiculous and unhealthy amounts of time playing the game and adjusting to it and changes are horrifying to some people, but it's still a game not switching jobs. It's like learning to cope with a disease rather than get rid of it. Come one what's with this unwarranted resistance? We're in a forum to discuss.

It's NOT like PGI reads these anyways.

[Xiphias]

Dimento Graven, on 30 October 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

These are all baseless assumptions. 8v8 in the quick play solo and group queues is just 4 less players per side, period. TTK will still be the same, as the same idiot potatoes who insist on running out into open field will be just as focused as they were before, the only difference 4 less 'mechs are going to make is about 1 extra second of life.

TTK is determined for a single mech and is basically armor/DPS. If you go from 12 to 8 the amount of armor on a mech doesn't change, but the amount of firepower that can be brought on it does.

If a mech stands in the open it's going to die faster with 12 mechs shooting at it than with 8 mechs shooting at it. Sure, if every mech shoots at different targets TTK is the same in a 1v1 as in a 12v12. In practice though mechs focus fire and that single mech dies much faster. Having less firepower on the field will increase TTK. Brawling for example has better odds of surviving when crossing the open against ranged mechs.

As you've actually admitted in your example, it will increase the TTK for that potato. With fewer mechs there are fewer cases where you will get a lot of mechs against a small number. It doesn't always increase TTK, but overall it certainly will. It definitely makes it more forgiving if a player accidentally peeks the wrong corner or crosses the wrong spot.

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As far as 'forcing importance' of each player, BOTH SIDES will have the same number of players, and over all will have the same level of importance now.

This terribly flawed logic though.

By your argument if we go down to 1v1 BOTH SIDES will have the same number of players, and overall will have the same level of importance now.

That simply isn't true. It's clear that in a 1v1 the player has 100% importance to whether or not they win the match. In rough terms the importance of a single play is 1/(total number of players). While this isn't strictly true the more players you have the harder it is for a single player to make a significant impact. It's just how things average out. If you had 1000 players on each side having one really good player is going to make less of a difference.

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In my experience having 12v12 adds additional level of strategy and tactics not available with fewer players on the board. For the vast majority of the player base who aren't competitive players, 8v8 will be boring and accelerate the player diaspora we're suffering now.

And in my experience I don't really see much change, just a dilution of what a single player or small group can do. For 90% of the pug matches I'm in it's just deathball/nascar/hide and poke. With 8v8 at least the matchmaking can be better. Organized play adds a lot of strategy and tactics, for pugging 8v8 is more rewarding because it rewards individual effort a lot more. Even in organized play having more mechs tends to lead to more static play because of the above mentioned TTK.

[Bud Crue]

Apropos of nothing...

12v12 was introduced in fall 2013.
EVERY.
SINGLE
BALANCE
DECISION
Since then, has been focused on 12v12 play. Every MAP that has been introduced, is focused on and designed around 12v12. All the old maps that were removed were removed because they were designed for 8V8 and PGI stated point blank that they needed to be enlarged and changed for 12v12.

Makes perfect sense to go back to 8v8 at this point I guess. What could go wrong?

[Cizjut]

Bud Crue, on 30 October 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

Apropos of nothing...

12v12 was introduced in fall 2013.
EVERY.
SINGLE
BALANCE
DECISION
Since then, has been focused on 12v12 play. Every MAP that has been introduced, is focused on and designed around 12v12. All the old maps that were removed were removed because they were designed for 8V8 and PGI stated point blank that they needed to be enlarged and changed for 12v12.

Makes perfect sense to go back to 8v8 at this point I guess. What could go wrong?

Yeah this is the downside of it. They never expected the game to pick up at any point and left it as a 12v12 game where it's a nightmare to balance.

Still want to try the 8v8. Bring some mates in. At least a beta queue to try it out. They added a competitive queue that nobody has ever used anyways.

[Dimento Graven]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

it wasnt. gunlines werent nearly as strong in 8v8. you only had 8 mechs that could focus fire, not 12. thats a third less concentrated firepower.

Maps were CONSIDERABLY smaller then, than they are now too...

Until they fixed the drop positions in old Forest Colony, I could literally start the match by gaussing my enemy as soon as the match started.

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that meant it was much easier for brawlers to close the distance gap. because there was less focus fire and they didnt die as quickly to gunlines.

Only easier when playing against uncoordinated team. 8 'mechs can shoot the legs off an enemy just as quickly as 12 can. The difference is negligible.

Now in uncoordinated pug drops... Maybe. But of course the favorite thing to do then was to practice headshots on the idiots who immediately charged through open terrain looking to get into brawl position.

Now, of course, most people will use cover to close the distance, and then, that's something that doesn't require 4 less 'mechs per side on the field though, does it?

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which led to more varied builds. not just long range poking builds.

Hardly. I was there too. You have more long range builds now because maps are MUCH larger than they were. The two sides are no longer starting within PPC/gauss range of one another because the maps have more room.

'mech builds are more a factor of how the maps make us fight than how many other 'mechs there are on the field.

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light mechs and medium mechs were also stronger in 8v8 because they were a higher % of their team's overall tonnage. in 12v12, light mechs and medium mechs dont have nearly as strong of a role as they did in 8v8. lights and mediums are struggling right now to compete on equal footing with heavies/assaults.

Again, I don't think we're playing the same game.

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again that led to more varied gameplay.

Bull excrement. I was there, it was damned boring. The same goddamned builds brought to the match, and using the same damned strategy, damn near every time.

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8v8 < 12v12

FTFY.

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so when we inevitably go back to 8v8, I guess youll just have to deal with it.

No, I won't. I can just stop playing, as probably will almost everyone who hasn't forgotten how extremely lame and tired 8v8 was.

[s0da72]

When can I get 20vs20 in quickplay?

[Mystere]

Cizjut, on 30 October 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

So 8v8 in quickplay/ranked when?

**** eSports!

Edited by Mystere, 30 October 2017 - 03:23 PM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

the point of 8v8 isnt to make the potatos on your team less potato. the point is that it allows the good players to carry their team better.

"Carrying" in a team-based game is a terrible idea to promote. It needs to be nuked from orbit.

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

12v12 is largely responsible for the game being in such a sorry state. which is why comp play is 8v8 not 12v12. and why PGI has even said they might go back to 8v8 for quickplay. they know 12v12 sucks.

I have a different perspective: PGI's servers and/or code cannot handle 12v12. Rather than fixing the code and/or improving the server infrastructure, choosing to instead regress by going 8v8 is a clear sign of [unmentionable].

Cizjut, on 30 October 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

Why did they chose to make an 8v8 the competitive one?

See above.

Edited by Mystere, 30 October 2017 - 03:33 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Cizjut, on 30 October 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

WOW those are a LOT of baseless assumptions, even the &quot;ur elitist&quot; one

My position doesn't start with, "Well the comp scene does it, so EVERYONE ELSE should do it too..."

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Seems like we both have a lot of assumptions. Why not we get the 8v8 right now and test by ourselves and see what comes up?

Because we had 8v8 for, what, 3 years?

It's done been tested to death.

It sucked.

We got 12v12, things got better.

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Sorry for getting under your skin. I didn't know it was this thin, and didn't meant to make you feel threatened in any way good man.

Cute dig there little girl... Pointless, but cute.

Quote

But coming back to the point:

Let me ask you something. What is the bread and butter of MWO? If this was Quake, you would say it's Deathmatch or Team Deathmatch. If this was League of Legends, it would be Summoner's Rift, 5v5, tank, support, carry, mage and brawler.
Is 12v12 the bread and butter we always wanted in MWO? Was the game designed this way first? we know it wasn't, it was dying and added the third lance to keep the queues down.

12v12 is a lot of cannons aiming into a single direction. It raises the importance of the individual rather than being a single grunt. Also that raises the TTK. But it's been years floating around the idea that we should go back to 8v8, and would gladly test that with pubs and see.

First off 8v8 was done because programmatically it's easier. Server-wise, it's cheaper.

The goal was always 12v12, the lore company vs. company, 3 lances per side battle configuration most of us grew up playing this game.

TTK has always been short in this game, even in 8v8. It was NOT longer in 8v8 than it is in 12v12.

Secondly, name dropping other games is pointless. Most of those titles don't have 30+ years of lore pushing 12 man company vs. 12 man company battles.

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******** gonna ****. That doesn't change and has nothing to do with anything disscussed ever. And the diaspora of players is happening anyways because the game is and always will be fun at its core but not enough. And it's not enough because the mechvsmech interactions are good, but team vs team in an scenario are poorly thought and always have balance problems and a core problem that is &quot;we don't know what to do with the game.&quot;

That's a factor of population. There's not enough population for the MM to assemble balanced groups quickly enough to satisfy the player. There's not enough player base to tier the players properly, thus both group and solo quick play groups having to deal with mismatched skills.

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So why the 8v8 is important if it's the competitive scene? Why did they chose to make an 8v8 the competitive one? I do not have an answer to be certain, but I want to participate in that. I have assumptions though, which are in the OP, and would like to discuss them with experienced players. In fact, I would like to go competitive too, that would be cool, and not only would help to pinpoint effective changes to all the game systems, but also would focus the whole mess of the development which doesn't really knows where it wants to be. That's why I believe the 8v8 should be considered fast, and why you should care.

They made it 8v8 because it's easier to manage. They made it 8v8 because other games did it that way. They made it 8v8 because the previous 3 years of game play was based on 8v8.

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As for advertisements it's not gonna happen, otherwise PGI would have already done it. They would benefit from word of mouth, but first there has to be something to talk about, and that would be a competitive scene, which the game doesn't have. Also the FP mode would benefit too from it.

The game has a competitive scene, you've admitted it does, and you've admitted that the competitive scene employs 8v8 all on their own.

Forcing everyone else to play 8v8 doesn't make the competitive scene any more viable, popular, desirable than it is now. You don't need to force EVERYONE ELSE to play 8v8 to do that. You need to advertise.

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As for round based it's simple as why any other game does round based matches. It makes them exciting and the first one gives feedback to the second and third one, where players have tried and measured their opponents. Also extends the gameplay time naturally and doesn't end the experience abruptly. Some people do not like this part of MWO where you couldn't test yourself entirely. That is a personal point of view, it's merely a suggestion, as everything I posted here.

Elaborate on your definition of "round based matches." Then explain how it would work for quick play...