147 replies to this topic

[SFC174]

El Bandito, on 30 October 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

I have simple math to assume that--8v8 naturally has easier and faster matchmaking than 12v12. Also based on the observations of many players and myself, in general lower tiered players ARE worse than higher tiered players.

So what if a few leaves due to 8v8. PGI will gain more players cause many casuals will finally be able to try out this un-optimized mess of a coded game with more than 30 fps, thanks to 8v8. And it will also bring back those who had left, when MWO became 12v12 and fps when down the crapper.

Faster and easier is not _better_. Tarogato's recently posted numbers show a wider range in skill (match score) between the top and bottom of Tier1 than in the other Tiers. So again, you can't assume better matchmaking. You don't even know what percentage of your matches are all Tier1 right now and how many of them involve crap players.

And again, you're assuming that PGI will gain players by going to 8v8 because framerate? And players gone for years are going to come back for 8v8 in QP? Pretty big assumption there.

Leave Solo QP alone until they fix the MM. You play a ton of group anyways, I play solo exclusively so don't screw it up for guys like me.

[El Bandito]

SFC174, on 30 October 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

Faster and easier is not _better_. Tarogato's recently posted numbers show a wider range in skill (match score) between the top and bottom of Tier1 than in the other Tiers. So again, you can't assume better matchmaking. You don't even know what percentage of your matches are all Tier1 right now and how many of them involve crap players.

And again, you're assuming that PGI will gain players by going to 8v8 because framerate? And players gone for years are going to come back for 8v8 in QP? Pretty big assumption there.

Leave Solo QP alone until they fix the MM. You play a ton of group anyways, I play solo exclusively so don't screw it up for guys like me.

Except I play solo a lot too, and I prefer 8v8 for SQ. Hell, I even made a thread on it.

Faster + easier is better even if PSR stays the same, and it is still better to play with same tier players than lower tier players, despite the gap. You are being completely illogical to argue otherwise.

As for my assumptions, yours is a bunch of assumptions as well, except mine is based on actual in game performance, and math. 8v8 will have more benefits than 12v12, provided that PGI has the balls to go through with it.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 October 2017 - 07:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I'm not that motivated either way.

However, 12 v 12 does not have any more strategy or tactics than 8 v 8. Going off alone or flanking is actually less logical in 12 v 12 because you're going to be 33% more likely to get seen and the enemy has 33% more firepower to point at you.

12 v 12 seems better than 8 v 8 used to be specifically because at the exact same time we split groups and pugs and added a viable matchmaker (Elo worked better than XP bar PSR ever will).

8 v 8 will mean less damage you get to do and fewer cbills to make. I absolutely do not trust PGI to commensurately increase cbill earnings.

8 v 8 is more friendly to pushing and way less friendly to sniping and LRM boats as you have 33% less pug armor.

8 v 8 absolutely will make matchmaking easier as the requirements for matching skill level and tonnage drop by 1/3rd the total people it needs to find in a given timeframe.

8 v 8 has a lot to recommend it but staying in 12 v 12 won't kill me.

[SFC174]

El Bandito, on 30 October 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

Except I play solo a lot too, and I prefer 8v8 for SQ. Hell, I even made a thread on it. And faster + easier is better even if PSR stays the same. You are being completely illogical to argue otherwise.

Let's make sure we're not talking across purposes. When I say better matchmaking, I want better balanced teams. I just did a Solo QP match today where the opposing team had players from Kcom, 228 and EMP. My team had no players I was able to recognize as top Tier1. Checking the names later none were even in the top 1000 match score wise. Naturally we got stomped.

As long as PSR is screwed up, the MM is screwed up regardless of how many players or their Tier. I'm an ok player - pretty middle of the road. And the number of games I get with Tier1 players scoring under 200 pts of dmg is scary. Whether a team is all Tier1 or a mix of T1-T3 really doesn't matter at this point. I am willing to take a slower matchmaker if I get more evenly balanced teams. Better matchmaking is more important to me than faster and easier.

Again, as long as PSR and Tier are as screwed up as they are, changing other variables in matchmaking does not mean improvements in matchmaking.

[El Bandito]

SFC174, on 30 October 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Whether a team is all Tier1 or a mix of T1-T3 really doesn't matter at this point.

Except it does matter. Does not matter all the time but matters enough times for 8v8 to be welcome replacement for QP. Sure we all want PGI to rework the PSR system but that's far less likely than 8v8 proposal--which is something we can feasibly get.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

When your entire argument is just telling the other side they are only making assumptions while they bring out math to back up their side and then bringing in unrelated tangents its a sign that you might just be wrong.

[Asym]

NO...

If the Comp guys want 8x8: that's fine for them in the comp que...
Leave us average players alone.

Hey, you "good guys", play Comp and FP and leave your 'want-to-farm-someplace-safe' antics somewhere else...

MWO will cease to exist; if, there isn't a safe and relaxed place for new, casual and average players, that have 0 desire to compete with anyone, to play.....

Leave QP alone and go to Solaris and blow each other into plasma if that's somehow fun? No to 8x8.

[naterist]

Make it 8v8 pgi. Then fw will be the only 12v12 place, so itll have its niche again, and people will finish matches and reque faster, decreasing overall wait time.

[Xiphias]

SFC174, on 30 October 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

Nope, you can't come to that conclusion. Simply because the number of mechs able to concentrate on a single enemy at one time is a small subset of the total mechs in the match. Unless you walk into an enemy firing line in the open on Polar Highlands, the enemy will have a hard time focusing more than 3-4 mechs on you at one time, assuming they are actually working together. While 8v8 will have fewer mechs, they will also have fewer targets

As I said it's was a simplified example. In a perfect mathematical system it depends on the multiples the team size and kill groups are divided into. Again in pure math it's harder to flank a line the larger it gets. The proportional size of the flank decreases with the increasing size of the line. If you group a line of 12 mechs into adjacent groups of 3 (reusing mechs since mechs can cover multiple positions) you will get at total 10 positions that can be covered with 3 mechs. Assuming you need to defend 12 mechs that 83% coverage. With an 8 man group you can only cover 6 spots which is 75% coverage. This trend always holds true. The bigger the team the more positions that can be more effectively covered and the more likely a mech that steps into a position will die.

Put this way, the average TTK of each position decreases resulting the overall TTK decreasing. This is what causes static gameplay. Having more positions covered makes it riskier to move. That's a gross simplification, but there are all sorts of situations where the TTK goes down with more players. Take a map like Tourmaline, Alpine, or Polar, it's not that hard to get more than 3-4 mechs focusing on a target. Perhaps more importantly you're more likely to have at least 3-4 mechs shooting at you than with an 8 man.

Regardless, arguing this from a theoretical numbers standpoint is pretty pointless. I've played both 8v8 and 12v12 and TTK absolutely goes up in 8v8. That's part of the reason comp leagues went down to smaller numbers. Mech just evaporate in organized 12v12.

SFC174, on 30 October 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

Faster and easier is not _better_. Tarogato's recently posted numbers show a wider range in skill (match score) between the top and bottom of Tier1 than in the other Tiers. So again, you can't assume better matchmaking. You don't even know what percentage of your matches are all Tier1 right now and how many of them involve crap players.

And again, you're assuming that PGI will gain players by going to 8v8 because framerate? And players gone for years are going to come back for 8v8 in QP? Pretty big assumption there.

Leave Solo QP alone until they fix the MM. You play a ton of group anyways, I play solo exclusively so don't screw it up for guys like me.

He pretty much showed that with the exception of T1 PSR works pretty well. T1 is obviously broken and needs to be fixed, but part of the problem with doing that is that the players at the very top would end up with a much smaller matchmaking pool. Having 8v8 would make it more feasible to divide the tiers in a more granular way which would help in fixing the mismatch that you see in T1.

Asym, on 30 October 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

NO...

If the Comp guys want 8x8: that's fine for them in the comp que...
Leave us average players alone.

Hey, you "good guys", play Comp and FP and leave your 'want-to-farm-someplace-safe' antics somewhere else...

MWO will cease to exist; if, there isn't a safe and relaxed place for new, casual and average players, that have 0 desire to compete with anyone, to play.....

Leave QP alone and go to Solaris and blow each other into plasma if that's somehow fun? No to 8x8.

I'm not sure how you think going from 12v12 to 8v8 will make it harder for casuals and average players? If anything it should allow PGI to tighten up the matchmaker

[El Bandito]

Asym, on 30 October 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

MWO will cease to exist; if, there isn't a safe and relaxed place for new, casual and average players, that have 0 desire to compete with anyone, to play.....

Leave QP alone and go to Solaris and blow each other into plasma if that's somehow fun? No to 8x8.

That's a dumb comment if I ever saw one. MWO existed during 8v8 QP days just fine--no one complained that 8v8 was not fun. Only reason balance was not well done during those 8v8 days in QP was because up to 4-man groups could drop against solos. Now SQ doesn't have groups vs. pugs, so there is no more such balance issue.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 October 2017 - 09:19 PM.

[GoatHILL]

The MWOWC is 8v8 because it saved PGI the price of 12 plane tickets. Russ said as much in the town hall when he laid everything out.

It had nothing to do with game play.

[Mr Snrub]

naterist, on 30 October 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

Make it 8v8 pgi. Then fw will be the only 12v12 place, so itll have its niche again, and people will finish matches and reque faster, decreasing overall wait time.

Since waiting time for FW is unbearable while you get a QP match almost instantly, the other way around would make more sense.

Also, don't f**k with QP, it's the only thing that functions the way it should. (Not that it's beyond PGI trying to fix things that aren't broken).

[El Bandito]

Mr Snrub, on 31 October 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

Also, don't f**k with QP, it's the only thing that functions the way it should. (Not that it's beyond PGI trying to fix things that aren't broken).

It was functioning just fine with 8v8 back in 2014, when PGI ****** with it, and that resulted in massive fps loss for everyone, as well as encouraging full-blown idiotic nascaring and deathballing. Not to mention graphics were turned down to compensate for fps loss. Pre-12v12 MWO was such a beauty to look at, if you see the old footages of spiraling missiles, actually good damage scars (not current ugly barnacles), and GOD THE AMMO EXPLOSION EFFECT WAS COOL!

Shiet, we even had Inverse Kinematics, back in the days. 12v12 was a mistake for this un-optimized, coding mess of a game, as we lost so much in return.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 October 2017 - 05:14 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

El Bandito, on 31 October 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

It was functioning just fine with 8v8 back in 2014, when PGI ****** with it, and that resulted in massive fps loss for everyone, as well as encouraging full-blown idiotic nascaring and deathballing. Not to mention graphics were turned down to compensate for fps loss. Pre-12v12 MWO was such a beauty to look at, if you see the old footages of spiraling missiles, actually good damage scars (not current ugly barnacles), and GOD THE AMMO EXPLOSION EFFECT WAS COOL!

Shiet, we even had Inverse Kinematics, back in the days. 12v12 was a mistake for this un-optimized, coding mess of a game, as we lost so much in return.

It was 8v8 back then because PGI didn't know how to make it work. Their servers would have died, never would have been able to hit anything before they optimized the network utilization and got a half-assed HSR functioning to a reasonable point.

The goal was ALWAYS 12v12 and beyond.

Just because PGI was inexperienced at creating MMO's and compromised, for a while, on drop sizes doesn't mean that was their gold standard.

To state anything else is sheer stupidity, and intentional arrogant ignorance.

We did 8v8, and when we had 8v8 we had, short TTK, death balls (that's when the term was 'invented' after all), and every other factor all the anti 12v12'ers are bitching about.

8v8 for comp is because it's MUCH easier for medium and smaller units to participate if they only need to bring 8 people to a match. It's much easier for the organizers to track and maintain as well. It had nothing to do with people dying "too quickly"...

The only thing going BACK to 8v8 might do is hide the lack of an abundant player base, BUT, it WILL cause more players to leave, so even that benefit is short lived.

It won't make match making any more balanced, the MM algorithms are based on Tiers, and the Tiers aren't based on the right numbers, so your 8v8 matches will be WORSE than the 12v12 because you'll be afflicted with groups with LARGER potato numbers.

FIX the population problem FIRST, by ADVERTISING.
FIX player retention by offering additional content.
FIX map affects on game play by including randomized drop locations.
FIX the Tiering system to properly rank players based on the in game numbers they produce.

Do these things and THEN we'll see improved match making times, improved match making balance, and more interesting play.

We ALREADY did 8v8, it was NEVER as good as 12v12, we DO NOT need to go back and do something stupid because a few morons are 'remembering it fondly', and the idiots that never experienced it are drinking the moron's Kool-Aid...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 31 October 2017 - 06:02 AM.

[Asym]

El Bandito, on 30 October 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

That's a dumb comment if I ever saw one. MWO existed during 8v8 QP days just fine--no one complained that 8v8 was not fun. Only reason balance was not well done during those 8v8 days in QP was because up to 4-man groups could drop against solos. Now SQ doesn't have groups vs. pugs, so there is no more such balance issue.

I nornally agree with you but not this time...

Look, better players want 8x8 because they can "farm faster" with less clutter...

I've actually asked players I know and those are their words... Sync drop in and farm faster and more efficiently.... It worked earlier because it was a new game. People have "gamed the system" now and figured out what is the fastest and easiest way to farm.... We read about it each and every day on this forum... So I asked" Why would you prefer 8x8 and the answer was about 90% of the time "because it is faster (to farm noobs and weaker players)". People in this game enjoy that if you haven't figured that out my friend. I was TK's in FP when I insisted that we finish a match in "single combat" vrs farming the spawn site......

[SFC174]

Dakota1000, on 30 October 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

When your entire argument is just telling the other side they are only making assumptions while they bring out math to back up their side and then bringing in unrelated tangents its a sign that you might just be wrong.

I haven't seen any math yet. And as long as the MM is broken (and it is) going to 8v8 should be off the table. It's hard enough playing against the top players in 12v12 solo queue. I've probably played in solo queue matches with proton (I keep mentioning his name he's going to suddenly materialize here) 10 times. And the guy averages 900-1000 pts dmg and 3-4 kills easily. But he only won 60-70% of those matches (still awesome, but shows you how much the team matters). Put him in a solo queue 8v8 match with the current matchmaker and he's going to be hard to beat because now he can kill _half_ the enemy team on his own. Guys like that have to be offset by similarly skilled players on the opposing team (which the current PSR can't do by definition). Their ability to dominate will go up with 8v8 so MM becomes much more important.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

having to suffer useless potatos being on your team in a team based game is whats terrible

thats why carrying should be a thing, because of all the bads that ruin the game if you cant carry

Take it as an opportunity to be a leader and/or mentor. If you can't (or don't want to) take it, then drop in a full group.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

which is why matchmaker shouldnt care about wins or losses. only match score.

top8 players by matchscore go up in rank
middle8 stay the same
bottom8 go down in rank

wow khobai you just fixed the matchmaker so players actually have to do consistently well in order to advance in tier

potatos wouldnt be able to advance in tier by parasiting off good players then

Except match score can be gamed.

Winning, on the other hand, cannot. And a so-called "potato" who consistently finds himself on the winning team must be doing something right -- even if just being the team mascot.

There is a reason why many think Elo was better than the current PSR system.

Edited by Mystere, 31 October 2017 - 07:05 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Asym, on 31 October 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

I nornally agree with you but not this time...

Look, better players want 8x8 because they can "farm faster" with less clutter...

I've actually asked players I know and those are their words... Sync drop in and farm faster and more efficiently.... It worked earlier because it was a new game. People have "gamed the system" now and figured out what is the fastest and easiest way to farm.... We read about it each and every day on this forum... So I asked" Why would you prefer 8x8 and the answer was about 90% of the time "because it is faster (to farm noobs and weaker players)". People in this game enjoy that if you haven't figured that out my friend. I was TK's in FP when I insisted that we finish a match in "single combat" vrs farming the spawn site......

i disagree, most players dont want to [Farm Faster] they want to play the game and have fun,
if your playing the game to only unlock things and you want as easy a time as possible are you really having fun?
much like playing any single player game with God-Mode on, its fun at first but after abit it gets kinda dull,

personally i feel(i would like to think) most players would like to have matches be as balanced as they can,
because its those close 10-12 or 11-12 matches that make the best stories and stick in your mind the most,
no one really remembers 0-12 stomps unless something cool or out of the ordinary happened,

personally i like the idea of 8v8, i think it would be better for mwo at least for Quick and Group play,
i feel it would offer better matches as the MM doesnt have to find 24 people of like skill, only 16,
which should help matches become much closer, as well as make scouting more important,

they said [because its faster]? and you interpreted that as [they want to farm weaker players]?
even if everyone in the match is equal skill, 8v8 will still be roughtly 1/3 faster than 12v12,
as theirs less armor on the field, i dont think Farming Players has anything to do with it,

[Mystere]

Dakota1000, on 30 October 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

Exactly why people should understand that win loss ratio as the main factor of moving up or down in tier is a failure of matchmaking. People should be matched up based on their actual contributions to the win, damage, kills, assists.

What about being bait? Vanguard? Distraction? Command? Leadership? Inspiration?

A great leader (whether or not a terrible fighter/shooter/whatever) who stays out of the fight while consistently giving out commands that make the team win will lose out on your "system".