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Automated Targetting System?


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#1 The6thMessenger

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 11:23 PM

I recently played with Armored Core, and i noticed how they handled their combat. 3rd Person, lock-dependent, auto-aim with automated target lead. It does make the game feel a lot more electronic or machine-based.

So here's an idea -- what if we just made ALL weapons "auto aimed"? Computer automatically puts an adequate lead whether you shoot an AC, PPC, or Laser. The mech will AUTOMATICALLY shoot at the general direction of the target, but will require some sort of missile-lock. Think of it as turning every other weapons in the game like LRMs.

Here are the Components:

Quote

1.) No More Pin-Point Fire

All weapons subjected to cone of fire. PPCS, ACS, RACs, Laser no longer converges at the EXACT point of the reticle. Cluster-fire such as LBX or SRMs does not increase their spread-pattern, but COF applied in their case would mean where the center of such cluster is directed towards.

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2.) Individual Weapon Lock

SSRMs, ATMs, and LRMs used to share Locks, no longer. Each weapon will now have their own individual locks. And each shot would need reaquire lock, exept for Lasers, MGs and RACs. LRMs and ATMs now only needs retained target lock, not missile lock. Homing Missiles can fire before a complete lock is made.

Direct Fire weapons such as ACs, PPCs, LBXs, RACs, SRMs automatically shoots AHEAD your target -- an Automatic Lead, but it's merely constrained by the COF.

Direct-Fire weapons require LOS to achieve Weapon Lock, while Homing Weapons doesn't need LOS to achieve Weapon Lock. Burst-fire weapon such as UACs will apply spread to each individual shots, but laser-beams stay at the initial point of fire, but will move actively closer or farther from the center depending on how tight the lock-based spread is, but still retain the percentage of deviance from the center. e.g.

If the laser beam starts at 4 degrees right and 3 degrees down from a maximum of 5 degrees x-y spread to a minimum of 3 degrees, then actively reducing the spread when lock is being attained would mean that the laser beam would shift between 3 - 1.8 degrees down, and 4 to 2.4 degrees right, depending on how much lock is attained.

Torso weapons would have smaller COF, but Arm Weapons would have faster Weapon Lock. Weapons will lock based on what reticle they are assigned, except for homing weapons.

Lasers, RAC and MGs don't need to reaquire lock every fire.

One CAN still shoot without assistance of a weapon lock, which can happen if one doesn't engage target lock, or shoots prior to complete weapon lock. It wouldn't be just as effective with the tight spread.

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3.) Weapon-Based Lock Characteristics

The effectiveness of weapons are heavily based on Weapon Lock. With pin-point weapons now subjected to COF, the use of Weapon Locks tightens the Cone-Of-Fire like Aim-Down-Sight for Direct-Fire Weapons, but the effect on LRMs, SSRMs and ATMS instead affects their tracking strength.

Example (Values are theoretical and only for representation of intent):

Spoiler


SSRMs, LRMs, and ATMs will be relatively the same as they are before, except that they are relatively fire-and-forget, one just needs a retained Target Lock, not Missile/Weapon Lock.

LBXs and SRMs are characterized by the smallest initial COF, and fast Weapon Lock, but will have little spread improvement that it's only necessary at using them outside their prescribed ranges -- such as SRMs beyond 200m, or LBXs at their actual effective range. That means they are less dependent to Weapon Locks.

ACs are characterized by balanced Lock Time, COF and Min COF. If you want to accurately place shots long range, this limits your rate of fire, but you can also rapid-fire at the cost of accurate shots. They are only dependent to locks depending on how far the target is.

UACs are characterized by slightly larger COF and Min COF.

RACs and MGs retains Weapon Locks and don't have to reaquire Weapon Locks every fire, they also have the fastest weapon lock.

Gauss Rifles are characterized by largest COF, smallest Min COF, and longest lock time.

PPCs are characterized by large COF, small Min COF, and long lock time.

Lasers are characterized by the smallest Min COF, and doesn't need to reacquire locks every after fire.

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4.) Reduced ECM effect, Reduced Sensor Range and Targetting Computer provides Lock-Based Bonus

Mech Sensors is now at 600m than 800m, and ECMs now only increases Lock Time by 50%, not by 100% or doubles it. Tacticon 3000, Active Probes, along with skill-nodes now provide 50% more sensor range.

Targetting computer not only provides weapon stat bonuses and sensor bonuses, they also reduces Weapon Lock Time and Increase Lock-Angle. For example, the starting Lock Angle is at 25-degrees, each level would add 3 degrees, so a TC1 would have an end 28-degrees Lock Angle, a TC7 would have an end 46 Lock-Angle, and a TC8 at 49 lock angle.

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5.) Stats Adjustments

Weapons will receive appropriate Coodown Buff and/or Damage Buff, likewise quirks would be reconfigured, even replaced for some.


Before you start, no it's not just to "rip" on LRMs, rather it's intended to quell the problem of unhealthy TTK due to the pinpoint nature of the game. This tries to recapture the feel of Battletech, and it's automatic damage/spreading component by making the aim less demanding of skill. The game would be mostly dependent on positioning now, it's more about how one skillfully acquires a good spot, than being good at aiming.

This also means that to effectively hit people long range you need targeting, making scouts a lot more integral when you want to hit people above sensor range. You can still shoot without the need for lock, but lock just makes it more useful.

So you think this would work? Would it be close to Battletech style combat? Would it be more or less fun?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 01 November 2017 - 05:35 AM.


#2 Defender Rococo Rockfowl

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 11:41 PM

Yes, do all of the above. It doesn't hurt to try, and Lord knows something needs to be done to fix mwo. Those are some interesting suggestions.
But before that's implemented, completely ripping out the skill-maze & all quirks, and completely putting a stop to the "adjusting" of weapon damage & ranges every month needs to be done.

#3 El Bandito

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 11:48 PM

I have been advocating lock based accuracy for a long time. It will certainly help to curb snap shooting and peekabooing behavior, and encourage more face to face action--just like in the novels.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 October 2017 - 11:50 PM.


#4 Curccu

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 11:49 PM

So remove skill from the game...


NO FU**ING WAY!

#5 The6thMessenger

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 11:52 PM

View PostCurccu, on 31 October 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

So remove skill from the game...


NO FU**ING WAY!


There's still like mobility based, positioning based, and strategy based skill on the game. Skill isn't just about putting shells, beams, missiles, or bolts down range. Come on.

#6 El Bandito

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 11:58 PM

View PostCurccu, on 31 October 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

So remove skill from the game...


NO FU**ING WAY!


See, this is the kind of ignorant comment I dislike. The game will still be skill based, and good players will still beat bad players as well as before. The lock based accuracy proposal is simply a solution to one of the least lore unfriendly kind of combat, which started from MW2--not to mention the potential to build a whole new info-warfare system based around it.

Hell, WoT does something similar, and it is not suffering from it.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 November 2017 - 12:06 AM.


#7 Jun Watarase

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 12:05 AM

We tried to tell PGI in closed beta that pinpoint accuracy was a bad idea, but were shouted down by people who wanted to do 360 degree no scope headshots in mid air. Nearly every balance problem in the game stems from the pinpoint accuracy that people wanted.

Also PGI wont put in the effort to turn this game into a tactical shooter.

Would you like to buy a mechpack?

#8 Curccu

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 12:13 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 31 October 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:


There's still like mobility based, positioning based, and strategy based skill on the game. Skill isn't just about putting shells, beams, missiles, or bolts down range. Come on.

View PostEl Bandito, on 31 October 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:


See, this is the kind of ignorant comment I dislike. The game will still be skill based, and good players will still beat bad players as well as before. The lock based accuracy proposal is simply a solution to one of the least lore unfriendly kind of combat, which started from MW2--not to mention the potential to build a whole new info-warfare system based around it.

Hell, WoT does something similar, and it is not suffering from it.

Let me rephrase: remove shooting skill from the game, still no ******* way!
If I want to use dices to make hit to rolls I can just play battletech... or WoAnyofthose (which I will not because I'm not fan of random in shooters)

edit PS. I'm not 100% against cone of fire, I'm 100% against autoaim/lead

Edited by Curccu, 01 November 2017 - 12:14 AM.


#9 Savage Wolf

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 12:21 AM

View PostJun Watarase, on 01 November 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

We tried to tell PGI in closed beta that pinpoint accuracy was a bad idea, but were shouted down by people who wanted to do 360 degree no scope headshots in mid air. Nearly every balance problem in the game stems from the pinpoint accuracy that people wanted.

Also PGI wont put in the effort to turn this game into a tactical shooter.

Would you like to buy a mechpack?

Accurate. They have even made sure to diminish what strategy layer that was in the game by making every game mode play like skirmish.

#10 Asym

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 05:23 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 31 October 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:


See, this is the kind of ignorant comment I dislike. The game will still be skill based, and good players will still beat bad players as well as before. The lock based accuracy proposal is simply a solution to one of the least lore unfriendly kind of combat, which started from MW2--not to mention the potential to build a whole new info-warfare system based around it.

Hell, WoT does something similar, and it is not suffering from it.

There is the key point: "they are not suffering from it."

What you see here above is anger against changing status quo: I'm comfortable so you all are idiots....... the comp teams would problably quit....

#11 Steve Pryde

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 05:28 AM

Never gonna happen cause Armored Core mechas dont have different hit zones like MWO. And ACs gaming speed is way faster than MWOs, without a automatic targeting system u wouldn't hit anything, specially with a controller.

#12 Tier5 Kerensky

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 05:42 AM

A rather radical idea.

I can see a lot of people would not want that. Oh, there would be still an effect of skill in the game? Yes, but not the kind of skill that some people want. The kind of which works for their advantage.

It's actually possible most people would prefer a system like that. Majority. But, I think the opposing people are a lot more vocal. Personally I think I could go either way, but there is a lot of new stuff to be learned to use that kind of system, while winning games. The appeal for that is not huge.

How would it in practise work, what would it take?
It would require a lot of work from PGI. You would not most likely want mechs just to splash away enemies at command, you'd want some level of targetting control. How is the event browser working for everyone, has enough work been placed to it to make it work for everyone?

(All the above questions are rethorical questions)

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 01 November 2017 - 05:43 AM.


#13 Hobbles v

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 05:45 AM

This isnt battletech or the novels get that through your braindead skulls. This is mechwarrior

Mechwarrior has always been point and shoot for direct fire weapons. And time to kill has been comparable to this game over the years. Main difference in ttk come from there being more people in a match to focus fire and less clunky controls.

Also taking control of shooting away from the hand that pulls the trigger is limitting. It would make targetting specific components troublesome as you wpuld have to cycle through parts to target beyond centre of mass shooting. Switch8ng targets would be a pain too. Notice a hurt mech in the back of a push? Too bad you have to press r 5 times to cycle thrpugh his buddies before you can kill him.

No thanks

#14 Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 05:58 AM

Is aiming hard?

I bet if autolock/aim is implemented, people would still complain about how some people click so fast that they autolock/aim better and so global autolock/aim should be on a cool down.

Edited by Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-, 01 November 2017 - 05:59 AM.


#15 Lily from animove

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 06:06 AM

Honestly that sounds rather boring but noob friendly, the aim is the major part of the games skillrequirements. If you take that away then you just turn into that walksimulator bot for your own mech.

Mechwarrior puts you in the place of the pilot, and in BT the pilots skill is affecting dices. So you as a person in a mechwarrior game should be the main component in the aim related parts of the game. otherwise we could just play a MOBA like Mech commander where we click our mechs around on the map. (which would be an own interesting way of playing a battletech moba).

#16 Bombast

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 06:30 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 31 October 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

Hell, WoT does something similar, and it is not suffering from it.


I just wanted to point out that WoT allows for this because it has an armor system, and auto-aim almost universally puts your fire into the most heavily armored part of the tank.

Whether its a good idea or not, it would not play like WoT.

#17 Verilligo

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 06:45 AM

Don't Armored Core mechs also move faster and with a LOT more agility than MWO ones? I get what you're after, but with AC you can throw off auto-aim by adjusting your trajectory and speed in a flash, that's part of the skill of piloting a Core. Battlemechs don't move like Cores, though. This would be a radical shift in just about every gameplay system, not just for MWO, but for a Mechwarrior game overall. Not that I necessarily dislike the concept, but this is way more than just adding cone of fire to account for auto-aiming.

I'm also not sure why everyone says that pinpoint fire is the cause of every balance issue. Balance issues are caused by actual balance issues. There should be a REASON for using every weapon, rather than one weapon simply being worse than another. Other Mechwarrior games have seemingly been reasonably balanced and I can't recall there having been one that had any sort of cone of fire mechanic.

#18 Lily from animove

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 06:55 AM

View PostVerilligo, on 01 November 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

Don't Armored Core mechs also move faster and with a LOT more agility than MWO ones? I get what you're after, but with AC you can throw off auto-aim by adjusting your trajectory and speed in a flash, that's part of the skill of piloting a Core. Battlemechs don't move like Cores, though. This would be a radical shift in just about every gameplay system, not just for MWO, but for a Mechwarrior game overall. Not that I necessarily dislike the concept, but this is way more than just adding cone of fire to account for auto-aiming.

I'm also not sure why everyone says that pinpoint fire is the cause of every balance issue. Balance issues are caused by actual balance issues. There should be a REASON for using every weapon, rather than one weapon simply being worse than another. Other Mechwarrior games have seemingly been reasonably balanced and I can't recall there having been one that had any sort of cone of fire mechanic.



other mechwarrior games had the same pinpoint, but they didn't share the ridiculous huge heattreshold and the thereby possible alphastrikes beyond good and evil.

#19 Nightbird

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 07:05 AM

Autoaim is for consoles, all console shooters have it because of the lack of precision of controllers compared to kb+mouse. MWO is a PC game.

Convergence is a different issue. Autoaim is a non-starter.

#20 Xiphias

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 07:05 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 31 October 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

Think of it as turning every other weapons in the game like LRMs.

Kill me.





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