218 replies to this topic

[C E Dwyer]

El Bandito, on 31 October 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

See, this is the kind of ignorant comment I dislike. The game will still be skill based, and good players will still beat bad players as well as before. The lock based accuracy proposal is simply a solution to one of the least lore unfriendly kind of combat, which started from MW2--not to mention the potential to build a whole new info-warfare system based around it.

Hell, WoT does something similar, and it is not suffering from it.

WoT has convergence, and WoT's combat mechanic means that if you use auto aim roughly 75% of your shots will do no damage.

in M.W.O system it will just mean TTK will drop by a large amount making the game worse.

[El Bandito]

Cathy, on 04 November 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

WoT has convergence, and WoT's combat mechanic means that if you use auto aim roughly 75% of your shots will do no damage.

in M.W.O system it will just mean TTK will drop by a large amount making the game worse.

You mean increased TTK (which is actually desirable)? Besides, WoT also has armor mechanic that reduces damage into glancing blows, something MWO doesn't have, and need.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 November 2017 - 05:26 PM.

[YueFei]

Mystere, on 04 November 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Ah! But considering most of those clusters are on only a single section or two, quickly making a mech lose at least half its weapons/fireporwer becomes an important skill. At the same time, arm-mounted weapons (assuming they have lower arm actuators) become important.

You do want MWO to require more skills, right?

I certainly would love to see MWO have a higher skill ceiling. In general I think that goes for any game. After all, folks can only take so much of tic-tac-toe before they solve it and it gets boring.

However, de-convergence will not solve that. Your point about mechs with clustered hardpoints being easier to neuter doesn't hold true, because a mech with distributed hardpoints will have an even harder time focusing a component, and as I already demonstrated with my math regarding accel/decel and turn rate, a lot of mechs when competently piloted already have the ability to spread the damage by juking faster than even the best marksmen can keep up with. It doesn't cause an outright missed shot, but it's enough to juke a hit to an adjacent hitbox. In this way, a good pilot might take one shot on the shoulder, the next on the CT, another on the arm, etc.

So, with de-convergence, mechs with distributed hardpoints have an even harder time landing their damage all on one component, while mechs with clustered hardpoints have an easier time focusing their damage. The mechs with distributed hardpoints will be shotgunning their damage all over an enemy if they fire all at once, or require more time to get off their salvo by shooting weapons in groups in rapid succession, requiring time and an adjustment of aim for each shot.... so that by the time they're getting off their last "packet" of their salvo, the enemy mech will have already turned and twisted to avoid giving an angle on the desired component. In exchange, the mechs with clustered hardpoints will just alpha everything, as they do now, and it'll all land on one or two components, and then they can immediately engage in defensive maneuvers.

The de-convergence solution isn't going to solve the balance issue, and I'm saying this as someone who once supported the idea. But I realize now that it wouldn't work.

[Deathlike]

There's nothing more to add to this discussion other than saying that if/when it is implemented where you could literally say "ggclose" to the game.

Seriously, the lack of ability to aim by the user is not your opponent's fault and changing it to auto-aim means you'll die faster to your inability to click "faster" than your opponent.

Edited by Deathlike, 04 November 2017 - 07:30 PM.

[Temporary Axis]

This game is built upon over 20+ years worth of FPS Mechwarrior computer games. There are other games that adhere to the tabletop inspiration you are proposing (please see Battletech from Harebrained Schemes) and you should focus your support and intentions there. All you do here is muddy the direction of this game trying to mold it into something akin to that. Telling people to go play Hawken when it's severs are set to close down in a few months because it has not even 0.01% of MWO player base is ridiculous. You have an alternative that adheres to what you want. I would suggest you depart this game and not those who are happy with the current state of how to aim.

Furthermore, the core mechanic of aiming in this game has not dramatically changed in the 4+ years of MWO. Why now (of all times) you wish to complain that you can't hit the broad side of a mech at 200+ meters, or twist an alpha strike, makes me feel you are either new to this game or you just like to complain about something you are struggling to play. If it's the first, give it time and you will get used to the mechanic. If it is the second, you frustrate me to the point of a visceral dislike.

I have poured thousands of dollars into this game and even with the things I disagree with, I would never seek to completely destroy the base mechanic of the game so thoroughly because i have failed to grasp/adapt/learn the various tactics required to play this game at a competent level. Neither would i sit there and complain about it until I morphed it into something that is similar to an alternative already available to me.

This idea is bad. Stop clouding PGI's already hit and miss attention.

Edited by Temporary Axis, 04 November 2017 - 10:11 PM.

[HGAK47]

Just voicing my opinion but I came here for a FPS mech game.

Edited by HGAK47, 05 November 2017 - 01:33 AM.

[dwwolf]

What skill requirement for shooting ?
There are NO skill requirements for shooting beyond needing to lead long distance targets with projectile weapons.
No ballistic arcs.
No dispersion.
No weapon based recoil.

And still lasers outshine other weaponsystems because they are even more point and click.

I get really sick of BECUZZ MEH SKILLLLZZZZ cries.
Or the appeals to tradition like : MECHWARRIOR HAS ALWAYS BEEN POINT AND CLICK AND SHALL REMAIN SO FOREVERMORE

Temporary Axis, on 04 November 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

This game is built upon over 20+ years worth of FPS Mechwarrior computer games. There are other games that adhere to the tabletop inspiration you are proposing (please see Battletech from Harebrained Schemes) and you should focus your support and intentions there. All you do here is muddy the direction of this game trying to mold it into something akin to that. Telling people to go play Hawken when it's severs are set to close down in a few months because it has not even 0.01% of MWO player base is ridiculous. You have an alternative that adheres to what you want. I would suggest you depart this game and not those who are happy with the current state of how to aim.

Furthermore, the core mechanic of aiming in this game has not dramatically changed in the 4+ years of MWO. Why now (of all times) you wish to complain that you can't hit the broad side of a mech at 200+ meters, or twist an alpha strike, makes me feel you are either new to this game or you just like to complain about something you are struggling to play. If it's the first, give it time and you will get used to the mechanic. If it is the second, you frustrate me to the point of a visceral dislike.

I have poured thousands of dollars into this game and even with the things I disagree with, I would never seek to completely destroy the base mechanic of the game so thoroughly because i have failed to grasp/adapt/learn the various tactics required to play this game at a competent level. Neither would i sit there and complain about it until I morphed it into something that is similar to an alternative already available to me.

This idea is bad. Stop clouding PGI's already hit and miss attention.

Ride the carcass down into flames. Thats apparrently what the community wants...because of "Skills" and " tradition"

Edited by dwwolf, 05 November 2017 - 03:23 AM.

[Mystere]

dwwolf, on 05 November 2017 - 03:22 AM, said:

What skill requirement for shooting ?
There are NO skill requirements for shooting beyond needing to lead long distance targets with projectile weapons.
No ballistic arcs.
No dispersion.
No weapon based recoil.

And still lasers outshine other weaponsystems because they are even more point and click.

I get really sick of BECUZZ MEH SKILLLLZZZZ cries.
Or the appeals to tradition like : MECHWARRIOR HAS ALWAYS BEEN POINT AND CLICK AND SHALL REMAIN SO FOREVERMORE


Ride the carcass down into flames. Thats apparrently what the community wants...because of "Skills" and " tradition"

People seem to be forgetting that said so-called "tradition" was also based on puny 80x8x CPUs that imposed design and implementation limitations on previous MW games.

[dwwolf]

I don't think that is totally valid.
There were significant sims like warbirds, Air warrior etc that ran on meager resources.

[davoodoo]

Promessa, on 05 November 2017 - 12:49 AM, said:

Can't we just roll some dice

Oh we will, battletech by hbs is coming...

Edited by davoodoo, 05 November 2017 - 03:53 AM.

[Mystere]

dwwolf, on 05 November 2017 - 03:50 AM, said:

I don't think that is totally valid.
There were significant sims like warbirds, Air warrior etc that ran on meager resources.

It was a design decision made by the previous MW developers based on the technology available at the time.

Edited by Mystere, 05 November 2017 - 03:59 AM.

[Appogee]

Could someone close this thread?

It's creation was an embarrassment.

It's ongoing existence is a travesty.

[JigglyMoobs]

I see that the cycle of potato has come full circle.

[Mystere]

JigglyMoobs, on 05 November 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

I see that the cycle of potato has come full circle.

WUT? Where have you been? So many things in this game have already gone full circle several times.

[Slambot]

This game is a shooter. Sorry, auto targeting takes much of the fun out of everything.

[Temporary Axis]

dwwolf, on 05 November 2017 - 03:22 AM, said:

What skill requirement for shooting ?
There are NO skill requirements for shooting beyond needing to lead long distance targets with projectile weapons.
No ballistic arcs.
No dispersion.
No weapon based recoil.

And still lasers outshine other weaponsystems because they are even more point and click.

I get really sick of BECUZZ MEH SKILLLLZZZZ cries.
Or the appeals to tradition like : MECHWARRIOR HAS ALWAYS BEEN POINT AND CLICK AND SHALL REMAIN SO FOREVERMORE


Ride the carcass down into flames. That’s apparently what the community wants...because of "Skills" and " tradition"

Ok, let's dive into this.

One, I never said tradition. This is your twist to my statement. To clarify with emphasis - I said MWO built upon MechWarrior FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS where the main SKILL REQUIREMENT and BASE GAME MECHANIC has been or revolved around AIM. If you wish to play a game type that does not have this particular version of the FPS mechanic, once again, BattleTech.

Two, your claims as to the requirement of "no skill".

• "No ballistic arcs" - Please go into the game and take any of the higher calibre autocannons out. Even firing a UAC5 at range requires correction for lead (which you credited) AND ARC. This is even more evident on an AC20.
  
• "No dispersion" - As above, please take out missile weapons of any type, ultra autocannons. The very nature of these weapons systems spread damage. If you're referring to weapon convergence, take out any mech with PGI's more creative hardpoint locations. The Nightstar comes to mind.
  
• "No weapon based recoil" - As far as this goes you are right with the exception of Heavy Gauss. Personally, I feel this is more of stylistic choice of PGI but to twist things in a similar fashion you can cry about it breaking "MUH IMMERSION".
  
• "And still lasers outshine other weapon systems because they are even more point and click" - You forgot the last part of the sequence that requires SKILL. Holding the duration. TRACKING YOUR TARGET. This SKILL is incredibly important for use of lasers. Without it, all you get is barely better than scratch damage all over a target.

Three, in your words, you "get really sick of BECUZZ MEH SKILLLLZZZZ cries". Looking at your stats, I can understand why.



You have played a grand total of 93 games of MWO in the quick play queues IN TOTAL. 23 of those you played in Season 2. You played nothing between seasons 3 to 14. The remaining 70 games you accrued in seasons 15 (32 games) & 16 (38 games). You can check these on the leader board function or use the other resources below.

• Here is a link to the leader board scrapping - https://public.table...play_count=yes.
  
• Here is a link to your current Jarl's list ranking, which aggregates and scraps all season leader boards showing your 93 games until last season - https://leaderboard....ch.php?u=dwwolf

Unless you:

· have put in significantly more games in the Faction Play queue,

· you changed the name of your account twice (once to something other than "dwwolf" and then back again which would make no sense),

· you have an alternative account, or

· Some weird and wonderful thing that gives you more insight into this game,

your grasp of the mechanics of this game are fledgling at best and your input on "skill" is baseless.


If you wish to compare your aim (which you claim - "There are NO skill requirements for shooting beyond needing to lead long distance targets with projectile weapons") with myself or any of several other competitive play pilots, we would be happy to indulge you.

P.S. Also it disturbs me that your stats place you in the 73rd percentile of players.

Edited by Temporary Axis, 05 November 2017 - 08:52 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Mystere, on 05 November 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

WUT? Where have you been? So many things in this game have already gone full circle several times.

Exactly. That's why it's a cycle.

[Appogee]

JigglyMoobs, on 05 November 2017 - 05:33 AM, said:

Exactly. That's why it's a cycle.

A downward spiral only looks like a cycle when you're directly overhead.

Why is this thread still open? It makes a mockery of generations of the honorable fallen.

Edited by Appogee, 05 November 2017 - 05:40 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Curccu, on 01 November 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Let me rephrase: remove shooting skill from the game, still no ******* way!
If I want to use dices to make hit to rolls I can just play battletech... or WoAnyofthose (which I will not because I'm not fan of random in shooters)

edit PS. I'm not 100% against cone of fire, I'm 100% against autoaim/lead

There realy is no such thing as "shooting skills" in this game.
And I am an expert Archer, smal bore sporting gun and rifle adept, large bore shot and even shoot some skeets from time to time.
This game has nothing to do with "shooting skills" its just hand eye klicky coordination that is mostly dependent of your personal nature, age and Quality of your PC.
You can't influence your nature or age and you can buy a better PC and periperals.
Rest is some practice...no skill involved.

And exactly that realy is ticking me of the most about this game.
PPL that copy some meta build from somewhere and instert their personal mouse klicky "skills" and macros and brag about their "skills" and how "skill" would be gone from the game when you take away the twitchy b...sh...

Edited by The Basilisk, 05 November 2017 - 05:50 AM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Speaking as someone who actually enjoys aiming at things, auto aim is a non starter.

However, a TC based ability to display a fighter HUD style lead reticle for ballistics and ppc after some targeting delay could be good. In exchange we should also get convergence at locked target distance.

For new players this will teach target lock and ballistics lead to ease the learning curve and speed up skill progression.

For skill focused players this will give us the proper convergence that many have asked for since open beta.