218 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

adamts01, on 07 November 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

Why don't you answer the question then. Most modern competitive shooters use a cone of fire mechanic. Why is shifting from pinpoint accuracy in MWO a nerf to skill but not a nerf to skill in games with an actual e-sports presence? Real life snipers have a cone of fire, and it's a skill to recognize external affecting factors and appropriately compensate by controlling range. It adds additional required skills to the table, and doesn't remove any.

CoD & BF only have 2 hit boxes - head and the rest of the body. You only need to hit *something* for that damage to register towards a kill.

Plus, movement is much higher, matches are more fast paced, only 1 weapon can be fired at a time & there are respawns. So many other factors to separate those games from this one.

[adamts01]

qS Sachiel, on 07 November 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

Your post proposes that CoD is competitive, not that there is high skill base required.

And your post proposes that that pinpoint aiming is tied to skill in this game, which CoF would ruin, but somehow not in other games?....
That list from 15-20 years ago doesn't mean much anymore, and such a simple system was moved away from with little reason to return to it.
I personally hate CoD and the like, but the fact that when selecting competitive games for actual competitions where people care about this stuff, it's one of the games that's picked. I only bring it up to show that skill doesn't revolve around pinpoint accuracy.

Jay Leon Hart, on 08 November 2017 - 12:40 AM, said:

CoD & BF only have 2 hit boxes - head and the rest of the body. You only need to hit *something* for that damage to register towards a kill.

Plus, movement is much higher, matches are more fast paced, only 1 weapon can be fired at a time & there are respawns. So many other factors to separate those games from this one.

Headshots in most FPSs are much more greatly rewarded than body shots, and much harder to achieve, as you point out. So my question remains, why is an aiming penalty under certain circumstances such a nerf to skill in a game such as MWO with such easy to hit targets, but not a nerf to skill in a game with much harder to hit targets? It's completely backwards to be honest. What it really comes down to is players used to this system not wanting to lose their edge by having a more complex system implemented, even if it means balancing and fixing the game.

[Jay Leon Hart]

adamts01, on 08 November 2017 - 01:29 AM, said:

Headshots in most FPSs are much more greatly rewarded than body shots, and much harder to achieve, as you point out. So my question remains, why is an aiming penalty under certain circumstances such a nerf to skill in a game such as MWO with such easy to hit targets, but not a nerf to skill in a game with much harder to hit targets? It's completely backwards to be honest. What it really comes down to is players used to this system not wanting to lose their edge by having a more complex system implemented, even if it means balancing and fixing the game.

Headshots in MWO are hard. Headshots in CoD, BF et all are rather easy. Especially on console, with aim assist.

MWO has the harder to hit targets, when talking about killing the enemy, because of more than just 2 hit boxes.

[qS Sachiel]

adamts01, on 08 November 2017 - 01:29 AM, said:

And your post proposes that that pinpoint aiming is tied to skill in this game, which CoF would ruin, but somehow not in other games?....
That list from 15-20 years ago doesn't mean much anymore, and such a simple system was moved away from with little reason to return to it.
I personally hate CoD and the like, but the fact that when selecting competitive games for actual competitions where people care about this stuff, it's one of the games that's picked. I only bring it up to show that skill doesn't revolve around pinpoint accuracy.

Headshots in most FPSs are much more greatly rewarded than body shots, and much harder to achieve, as you point out. So my question remains, why is an aiming penalty under certain circumstances such a nerf to skill in a game such as MWO with such easy to hit targets, but not a nerf to skill in a game with much harder to hit targets? It's completely backwards to be honest. What it really comes down to is players used to this system not wanting to lose their edge by having a more complex system implemented, even if it means balancing and fixing the game.

No, i was arguing against CoF, in the context of an automatic aim assist as per the OP, which is what this thread is about.

Iterations of those games were relevant shortly before MWO launched (UT3/Tribes Ascend), relevant while MWO was active (Tribes Ascend, Quakelive) and are slated for further franchise development now and into the future (Quake Champions). As stated, they underpin the shooter genre, and your attempt to dismiss their relevance based purely on their age, is a poor attempt at ignoring the point that this game carries a greater likeness to them than your CoD, BF, ARMA, modern shooter X.

If you didn't want me to pick apart your CoD analogy, and feel the need to use games which are represented 'in the esports biz' then why bring it up? We're talking about MWO. MWO. MWO. MWO. Read MWO. forget CoD. M.W.O. I could care less what other people are playing, because i'm playing (you guessed it) MWO.
If i want realism i play SQUAD
If i want a shooter/battle sim i play ARMA/Escape From Tarkov
If i want a last man standing i play PUBG
If i want stompy robots i play MWO

Plenty of games like CS bypass reticle bloom by the use of strafe-shots and the 'short stop' maneuver, which when timed correctly resets accuracy to 100. Also, given the behavior of certain guns and their interaction with movement penalty/bloom, esp in the case of CS, many upper level players bypass many weapons for AK/AWP which only reduces the variety of the game. There's plenty of good M4 and Krieg players out there but they are under represented.

Edited by qS Sachiel, 08 November 2017 - 01:59 AM.

[adamts01]

Jay Leon Hart, on 08 November 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

Headshots in MWO are hard. Headshots in CoD, BF et all are rather easy. Especially on console, with aim assist.

MWO has the harder to hit targets, when talking about killing the enemy, because of more than just 2 hit boxes.

Come on now, headshots in MWO might as well not exist, it's all about either CT or ST depending on the mech, which is infinitely easier than headshots in just about any other shooter out there. Other games have a ttk balanced around a mix of body and head shots, while MWO has a ttk balanced around total armor, which doesn't matter when everything hits a single component. Big alphas to a single component have been the single worst problem to balance since Clans were introduced. Another massive sacrifice we've suffered was completely gimped jump jets, another thing a variable CoF would fix over night.

qS Sachiel, on 08 November 2017 - 01:56 AM, said:

No, i was arguing against CoF, in the context of an automatic aim assist as per the OP, which is what this thread is about.

Iterations of those games were relevant shortly before MWO launched (UT3/Tribes Ascend), relevant while MWO was active (Tribes Ascend, Quakelive) and are slated for further franchise development now and into the future (Quake Champions). As stated, they underpin the shooter genre, and your attempt to dismiss their relevance based purely on their age, is a poor attempt at ignoring the point that this game carries a greater likeness to them than your CoD, BF, ARMA, modern shooter X.

If you didn't want me to pick apart your CoD analogy, and feel the need to use games which are represented 'in the esports biz' then why bring it up? We're talking about MWO. MWO. MWO. MWO. Read MWO. forget CoD. M.W.O.

Plenty of games like CS bypass reticle bloom by the use of strafe-shots and the 'short stop' maneuver, which when timed correctly resets accuracy to 100. Also, given the behavior of certain guns and their interaction with movement penalty/bloom, esp in the case of CS, many upper level players bypass many weapons for AK/AWP which only reduces the variety of the game. There's plenty of good M4 and Krieg players out there but they are under represented.

Fair enough. This is relevant though, as the core of OP's post was to increase the difficulty in dealing pinpoint damage.

I'm not necessarily dismissing them, but I acknowledge that mechanics have become more refined over the years as new technology allows us to do more

CoD was just to point out that skill and pinpoint accuracy aren't tied together, as you originally implied. If you want to look at more relevant games to MWO, look at Planetside, Squad, Arma..... Team based, squad combat with more complex battles. MWO needs more of that and less e-sports in my opinion.

[qS Sachiel]

adamts01, on 08 November 2017 - 02:04 AM, said:

...

I think i said it in this thread, but i'll say it again:
it was in response to someone saying that MWO was slated for 'bigger, better things' but has fallen back on the current iteration.
I'll be the first to welcome in a viable, working mechanic that adds to the breadth of the game. Not even mechanics but just more actual content. Hell, more maps (please forums don't quote that two new maps are coming SoonTM) would be a great start.

That said, i'm also thankful for what i've got, and given that the game was EA for some time, I for one like that it didn't just turn into an obvious franchise-feeder and feature creep failure like DayZ.

I feel that skill in MWO is very much tied to the accuracy and ability to obliterate a target, but accuracy isn't the sum of all skill. Too often in games like SQUAD i die to poor gunplay (half the time i think it's bollocks that my arms move like they're rubber while youtubers show tight and solid aiming, or when i'm getting shot around corners by half a guys left shoulder and the tip of his helmet, when his model shows the weapon on the right). Conversely, in MWO if i die or get cored out quick its because i've pushed too hard or too alone, or done something good, because my aim and ability to hold a target is quite good.

But my failings in either game doesn't suggest a systematic failing of the game requiring a severe change to a fundamental gameplay mechanic.

Gunplay is a massive part of MWO. Torso twisting too. There's less need to twist and more fire and forget in an automated targeting system. It just sounds like a skinner box.

Also, nice ninja on my edit ;P

Edited by qS Sachiel, 08 November 2017 - 02:29 AM.

[Mystere]

qS Sachiel, on 07 November 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

If people are so easily distracted from a conversation, how can we expect them to keep a moving target in their sights under fire?
Go back to Braveheart.

Some people can multi-task well, you know.

[Almond Brown]

Let's us remember that MWO has to run across the Internet and as is many folks LAG. Whether that is Potato PC/Laptops or location, who knows. (I don't lag in MWO myself, but have seen it with others) Having multiple cross hairs was tried (closed Beta) and dropped. waiting for weapons to converge was the suck, even if near instantaneous. Non pinpoint is not an option after the intro of HSR.(everyone seems to forget that).

Much of the things mentioned were tried and either just did not mesh with current Tech (HSR) or were decried and salted to death as change and f*ck change right? Like Lock required to get damage out past Optimal... tried it... whiners killed it...

Instead of upping Armor 3X, just drop all weapons damage by 1/3 (rounded). but one suspects many would not like that either way... PGI cannot win so they have basically stopped trying to hard. The Community that cried Wolf way to much has "reaped what they sowed"... sad really.

Edited by Almond Brown, 17 November 2017 - 12:12 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

I have been playing a lot of Destiny 2 recently and pvp in Destiny 2 is a great example of why "aim assist" should not be in MWO. People who want "aim assist" are the same people who cry "HAX!" when someone skill-shots them in the head from a long distance. So instead of the occasional skill-shot head hit kill, you will have people running aimlessly and snap-shotting your head in 90% of your matches.

[Xmith]

I think we already have an automatic targeting system.

It's kinda wierd how it works. Well, maybe not. When ever I run across lights, I automatically target the legs. I automatically target STs on some mechs and FT on other mechs. Assaults are usallly targeted automatically when they are being escorted.

Yeah, I think I do have an automatic target system...

Edited by Xmith, 17 November 2017 - 03:54 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

adamts01, on 07 November 2017 - 07:43 PM, said:

Call of Duty uses a cone of fire and is one of the most competitive games out there. How is pinpoint aiming skill based in this game but not that one?

While aiming is obviously a skill, managing fire rate, range, and having to choose between prioritizing movement or fire are also skills which you see in plenty of other successful shooters, but this "think man's shooter" lacks... It would add depth to the game and fix most balance problems, not nerf skill in any way.

This is not a dumbed-down (simplified controls, spray and one-shot kill) shooter. I suggested that anyone who says to make MWO more like COD, that they would probably be happier playing Titan Fall or Hawken ( wait, Hawken is being shut down because it did not make enough money).

Edited by Ed Steele, 17 November 2017 - 04:31 PM.

[Grus]

We're still talking about This?.. no Wot cone of rage thank you.

[NocturnalBeast]

Grus, on 17 November 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

We're still talking about This?.. no Wot cone of rage thank you.

We need to continue to fight against them, because MWO has a history of small numbers of squeaky wheels getting highly unpopular changes put into the game (3PV, Ghost Heat...).

[adamts01]

Ed Steele, on 17 November 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

( wait, Hawken is being shut down because it did not make enough money).

You act as if MWO isn't failing. I check in one or twice a year and this time I couldn't get in to a single match in group que over the span of a week. It's only barely afloat thanks to dedicated fans of the franchise, not based on anything PGI did right.

Ed Steele, on 17 November 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

We need to continue to fight against them, because MWO has a history of small numbers of squeaky wheels getting highly unpopular changes put into the game (3PV, Ghost Heat...).

If it's not cof then it's energy draw or ghost heat. Some system needs to be in place to keep mechs from reliably dying to a single shot. And I still believe this game is incredibly dumbed down, jokingly so. Stack lasers on the right mech then peek and alpha for the win. Match after match, comp or quick play. That's really it.

[Anjian]

Well, the makers of Titanfall are going to get bought out by EA for over $150 million in cash and over $160 million in long term equities.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

adamts01, on 19 November 2017 - 12:33 AM, said:

If it's not cof then it's energy draw or ghost heat. Some system needs to be in place to keep mechs from reliably dying to a single shot. And I still believe this game is incredibly dumbed down, jokingly so. Stack lasers on the right mech then peek and alpha for the win. Match after match, comp or quick play. That's really it.

Some disagree that there needs to be any system in place to keep a mech from dying in a single shot. Its already rare for that to happen and the amount of weapons and heat you generate even without ghost heat or other made up functions generally shut you down, resulting in your death if the guy who you just killed wasn't just off alone.

Generally most games consist of just doing peek and alpha for the win. Take the wildly successful game CSGO where you just run to cover for a good position and generally just fire one or two accurate shots to kill the enemy. That's generally how comp works in any game is that its full of players who are capable of killing an enemy in one or two shots due to their accuracy. In CSGO the low tiers will have players miss entire clips on enemies, attempt to spray down people with SMGs, taking 10 shots to kill a guy. Its similar to in MWO where our low tiers are full of people running bad builds that can output 1000 damage in a match but none of it significantly hindered the enemy while top tier you have people who fire about a 78-94 damage alpha that completely cripples an enemy.

I see no problems in a short time to kill, its the standard of most games that aren't just RPGs with bullet sponges. Even other mechwarrior games have all had short time to kills, just go and run LBX60 in MW4 and see how quickly things fall apart infront of you, or try boating gauss and PPC in that game too.

Why put an artificial limit cap on players who can play very effectively?

[Khobai]

Quote

Why put an artificial limit cap on players who can play very effectively?

because anyone can bundle a bunch of weapons together and fire them at someone.

literally anyone can take a x6 CERML, x2 HLL, x2 UAC10 direwolf into a quickplay match and one shot 2-3 mechs per game

it doesnt require ANY skill other than being patient and being able to aim for the center of a red box.

its not like youre making a 360 head shot from across the map. there is zero skill involved in making a big mech that fires big alphas.

Edited by Khobai, 19 November 2017 - 01:21 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Anjian, on 19 November 2017 - 01:00 AM, said:

Well, the makers of Titanfall are going to get bought out by EA for over $150 million in cash and over $160 million in long term equities.

Microtransactions & gamble loot boxes, coming soon to TitanFall!

Respawn Entertainment being closed down, also coming soon.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Khobai, on 19 November 2017 - 01:13 AM, said:

because anyone can bundle a bunch of weapons together and fire them at someone.

literally anyone can take a x6 CERML, x2 HLL, x2 UAC10 direwolf into a quickplay match and one shot 2-3 mechs per game

it doesnt require ANY skill other than being patient and being able to aim for the center of a red box.

its not like youre making a 360 head shot from across the map. there is zero skill involved in making a big mech that fires big alphas.

If they can take their Dire Wolf loaded up with a build that generates that much heat and go kill the majority of a lance then there's a lot more skill at work than you give credit for. First they were good enough pilots to position themselves in one of the slowest mechs in the game in a way that allowed them to take out 3 mechs before dying. Second, they had the heat management skills to take out these 3 mechs (none of which are one shot kills except for lights and light mediums) even with a build that easily spreads damage with *that* much heat generation.Third, they were able to use their survival skills during the match to survive long enough to rack up 3 kills even while driving one of the most focused down mechs in the game with very little ability to spread damage or run. Lastly they had the aim to hold 1.55 second long duration beams on target while also doing the same with UAC10s while accounting for lead and drop of said UAC10s in a way that allowed them to quickly kill the enemies they came up against.

So yeah, if the guy went out with their big alpha fat mech and got their kills they deserved them. There's no reason that after all the positioning, all the survival, all the heat management, and then finally the aiming that this person should just be suddenly struck down by the hand of RNGesus or "balance" and be forced to miss or instantly overheat because of ghost heat.

Edited by Dakota1000, 19 November 2017 - 02:29 AM.

[NocturnalBeast]

adamts01, on 19 November 2017 - 12:33 AM, said:

You act as if MWO isn't failing. I check in one or twice a year and this time I couldn't get in to a single match in group que over the span of a week. It's only barely afloat thanks to dedicated fans of the franchise, not based on anything PGI did right.

Since 2012, I have seen posts here, on Reddit and on various gaming blogs claiming that MWO is dying, so I will believe it when I actually see the servers go dark.

adamts01, on 19 November 2017 - 12:33 AM, said:

If it's not cof then it's energy draw or ghost heat. Some system needs to be in place to keep mechs from reliably dying to a single shot. And I still believe this game is incredibly dumbed down, jokingly so. Stack lasers on the right mech then peek and alpha for the win. Match after match, comp or quick play. That's really it.

Under the right circumstances, a Mech should be able to be destroyed in one well-placed shot or high damage alpha, although I agree that this should not be commonplace and having an aim-assist in game would make it more commonplace. The fact is the many players have different computers, different pings and different levels of hand-eye coordination and there will always be some players who have a more optimal combination of these things.