22 replies to this topic

[theta123]

Yesterday i had my first full combat experience with my dual heavy gauss rifle mauler. Had some good fun. But yeah. The weapon is one wich needs some work. Having to use a STD engine is ofcourse, the biggest problem. As a single rifle takes 11 crit slots.

But as i was searching about this weapon, i came across one of thr mechs that use it. The 4S variant of the marauder II. Keep in mind this is the IS 100t assault mech.

And well.. i read this ="The 3064 4S Marauder II uses the new Light Fusion Engine to make it less vulnerable to a side torso destruction. The visual aesthetic of the design was also altered to make it look even more intimidating. The 'Mech carries two ER PPCs as its primary weapons and two ER Medium Lasers for close ranges. For added punch at medium to short ranges, the 4S carries a Heavy Gauss Rifle"

SO..... it uses a Light fusion engine.....AND has a heavy gauss rifle.

HOW? because in MWO, there is no way you can mount a heavy gauss or LB20x with a light fusion engine.

Is the lore wrong? Or is PGI to blame?

[ChapeL]

Good question. I would assume crit splitting but I'm not a tabletop connaisseur.

[CK16]

TT has crit splitting.

Why you see some builds with LBX20 in arms also. Note HGR can not ever be put in an arm though, force wpuld tear the arm off (or pinwheel really bad). HGR have had to be only torso mounted.

[Nema Nabojiv]

There is a crit-split rule in battletech. It allows some slots of a wepon to occupy different sections of a mech. I guess in that case one or two slots of a gauss occupy the center torso.

[Paigan]

CK16, on 02 November 2017 - 04:20 AM, said:

TT has crit splitting.

Why you see some builds with LBX20 in arms also. Note HGR can not ever be put in an arm though, force wpuld tear the arm off (or pinwheel really bad). HGR have had to be only torso mounted.

Wait. There's crit splitting in TT?
Doesn't that turn the whole slot system ad absurdum? 20tonners having the exact same amount of space as 100tonners was already at the verge of being nonsense. Now you can even distribute big items over several components? They (BT/TT, not PGI) really should have done away with the whole overly detailled slot system altogether and just go for sized slots instead.
But anyway. Guess that's BT for you ... .

[theta123]

I see. Thanks alot gentlemen. I hope we could have crit split rule for HGR and lb20x. Or drop 1 slot per weap9n since PGI doesnt exactly follow with lore anyway

[Nema Nabojiv]

Also, MW4's weapon-slot system was the best take on a mech building since the beginning of the battletech. They even had missile pods as separate components and you werent screwed if someone shot them off.

[Karl Streiger]

Paigan, on 02 November 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Wait. There's crit splitting in TT?
Doesn't that turn the whole slot system ad absurdum? 20tonners having the exact same amount of space as 100tonners was already at the verge of being nonsense. Now you can even distribute big items over several components? They (BT/TT, not PGI) really should have done away with the whole overly detailled slot system altogether and just go for sized slots instead.
But anyway. Guess that's BT for you ... .

Crit Spliiting works only for
IS AC20
IS LB20X
IS UAC20
HGR
iHGR
Artillery pieces

- and the other stuff - well not TT should have get rid of criticals in 12 slot (2d6) brackets - because at least its still a mix of "simulator" and skirmish game played with pen and paper

the critical slot system with random rolls should not have existed in a FPS computer game however

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 November 2017 - 04:40 AM.

[CycKath]

Paigan, on 02 November 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Wait. There's crit splitting in TT?

Yes, but only for the AC/20, Ultra AC/20, LB 20-X AC and the Heavy Gauss. You can choose to split between either arm, side-torso and center torso - but that weapon gets the most restricted firing arc of both locations. If you mount it in the arm, then limited to the torso arc. The MAD-4S for example moves the extra crit to the CT instead though.

[RaptorRage]

Paigan, on 02 November 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Wait. There's crit splitting in TT?
Doesn't that turn the whole slot system ad absurdum? 20tonners having the exact same amount of space as 100tonners was already at the verge of being nonsense. Now you can even distribute big items over several components? They (BT/TT, not PGI) really should have done away with the whole overly detailled slot system altogether and just go for sized slots instead.
But anyway. Guess that's BT for you ... .

Between crit splitting and fractional accounting you can cram a 20 ton 20-slot Sniper artillery piece with some ammo on a 25 ton Mech with tabletop construction rules.

[Trissila]

Paigan, on 02 November 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Wait. There's crit splitting in TT?
Doesn't that turn the whole slot system ad absurdum? 20tonners having the exact same amount of space as 100tonners was already at the verge of being nonsense. Now you can even distribute big items over several components? They (BT/TT, not PGI) really should have done away with the whole overly detailled slot system altogether and just go for sized slots instead.
But anyway. Guess that's BT for you ... .

Not really.

Bear in mind that critical slots are only one facet of equipment in Battletech. There's also weight, and for weapons you have ammo and firing arc considerations as well.

So yeah, you could theoretically put a heavy gauss on a 30-tonner. But at 18 tons and 11 crits, you would HAVE to use an XL engine, Endo Steel, and possibly Ferro Fibrous to have enough weight available to mount the weapon. And then you get 4 shots per ton of ammo, and you MIGHT be able to put two tons on it. Most likely just one, because you still need armor -- as much as you can get, considering that you're going to be SLOW for a light if you're saving 19+ tons for weaponry.

So hooray, you have one gun with 4 shots and that's it. Technically possible, but not a build that anyone would ever want to use.

Split Crits also make a weapon incredibly vulnerable, given that you've doubled the number of hit locations from which it can be crit. In a game where hit location is determined by dice roll, that's huge.

[Bombast]

Paigan, on 02 November 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Wait. There's crit splitting in TT?
Doesn't that turn the whole slot system ad absurdum? 20tonners having the exact same amount of space as 100tonners was already at the verge of being nonsense. Now you can even distribute big items over several components? They (BT/TT, not PGI) really should have done away with the whole overly detailled slot system altogether and just go for sized slots instead.
But anyway. Guess that's BT for you ... .

Crit splitting only works on the super-sized stuff (Big ballistics, artillery) and can only split between two locations. You can't CT mount a HGR and spread it to both STs, for example. It also carries some negative side effects, particularly for the arms (If a weapon is split between an arm and a ST, the arms firing arc is restricted to the torso firing arc).

It's not that big of a deal. It's usually not worth it for custom builds by player, and the official mechs use it sparringly, and don't do dumb crap with it.

[Athom83]

Paigan, on 02 November 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Wait. There's crit splitting in TT?

You could only split equipment greater than 8 slots (AC/20, LB20, HG, etc).

Trissila, on 02 November 2017 - 05:38 AM, said:

So yeah, you could theoretically put a heavy gauss on a 30-tonner. But at 18 tons and 11 crits, you would HAVE to use an XL engine, Endo Steel, and possibly Ferro Fibrous to have enough weight available to mount the weapon. And then you get 4 shots per ton of ammo, and you MIGHT be able to put two tons on it. Most likely just one, because you still need armor -- as much as you can get, considering that you're going to be SLOW for a light if you're saving 19+ tons for weaponry.
So hooray, you have one gun with 4 shots and that's it. Technically possible, but not a build that anyone would ever want to use.

I don't know, running around with an Urbie with an H-Gauss sounds pretty fun.

[CK16]

Athom83, on 02 November 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

You could only split equipment greater than 8 slots (AC/20, LB20, HG, etc).


I don't know, running around with an Urbie with an H-Gauss sounds pretty fun.

won't happen unless you mount it in a ST. HGR do not work in arms, as no arm could support its recoil l, not even assault mechs....

[R Valentine]

Because tabletop had a mechanic PGI knows not of, where you can split the allocation of your weapon between components in exchange for making it more vulnerable. If you lose any component the weapon is allocated to, even if it's just 1 critical, the weapon goes kaboom. That solved the problem of the obnoxiously large Heavy Gauss, LB20-X, and Arrow IV not being able to be fit on anything but a standard engine, but since PGI's game is lame, we're still stuck with that obvious flaw. Arrow IVs are pretty much undoable in this game, hence why they haven't been seen.

[N0ni]

The Marauder II 4S crit splits between the RT and CT. (Only one crit in the CT as it also has a jumpjet in the CT as well).

[Kaeb Odellas]

CK16, on 02 November 2017 - 04:20 AM, said:

TT has crit splitting.

Why you see some builds with LBX20 in arms also. Note HGR can not ever be put in an arm though, force wpuld tear the arm off (or pinwheel really bad). HGR have had to be only torso mounted.

Which is nonsense, really. That would mean a point-blank HGR impact would rip the arm off any target, regardless of armor or structure.

[Nightbird]

Um.. no? The same energy is transferred, but in one the arm structure is trying to absorb the energy while remaining steady and the other the armor breaks to absorb the energy and the arm moves freely to avoid damage.

[davoodoo]

What is nonsense is hgr having this immense recoil.
Apparently slug is put inside magnetic field created by rails so majority of energy is spread outwards instead of inside the barrel when its propelled which would mean relatively little recoil for weight of the slug

and its not like hgr slug weights less than 250kg while ac20 shell weighs up to 200kg and doesnt rip off arms despite conventional explosive propellant.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 November 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Xavori]

RaptorRage, on 02 November 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

Between crit splitting and fractional accounting you can cram a 20 ton 20-slot Sniper artillery piece with some ammo on a 25 ton Mech with tabletop construction rules.

I would totally shove a Long Tom into a Piranha