37 replies to this topic

[Burke IV]

I suspect that RACs will operate just like LRMs, if you make them hit around the cockpit area the target is blinded.

Edit: maybe i should have read the tread before i answered

Edited by Burke IV, 03 November 2017 - 08:12 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Nema Nabojiv, on 03 November 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

One RAC5 have, according to smurfy, dps of 10.91. Thats like the highest in the game at the moment, and its roughly equiualent to 4x ERPPCs or 2x LRM20. And people usually bring two which does the dps of what, 8 erppc.

Of course there are downsides such as heat and jam bar and accuracy, but still it is very strong DPS-wise and it has blinding effect on top of that. So, yeah, lets push for dps buff because the highest dps is apparently "too weak"

Also, clan RAC or riot.

Yes, it's too weak currently

The downsides are so big that in order to be a good weapon it would need even higher DPS, also that DPS is not sustainable for long so it's a very iffy number to go by. Smurfy doesn't calculate sustained DPS correctly for racs at all and treats them as if there was no jamming and no heat. In reality racs are very hot weapons with a lot of downtime.

Of course you could buff it by reducing the downsides instead, for example it could take a lot longer to jam or run cooler or what have you, but IMO it's more intersting to keep it funtionally clunky but increase DPS to where it becomes worth taking.

Edited by Sjorpha, 03 November 2017 - 08:21 AM.

[Trissila]

Shifty McSwift, on 03 November 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

So you are fine with it basically becoming another potato masher weapon? Great against noobs who refuse to move or twist when being railed, mostly useless against at least half brained targets.

We already have a number of facetanking guns that don't need blinding effects to be remotely useful. And again, I think more importantly is the fact the blinding effect can mostly be bypassed by using the UI/Hud, and the blinding effect is not at all predictable or reliable. Which makes it feel like an accidental effect of the gun even moreso than normal.

Twist all you like; if you're in one of the many 'mechs that's got a long nose I'm still going to be hitting your CT when I adjust, which I can do because it's a stream weapon. And if your 'mech is more humanoid? Not ideal, but hey, you're no longer shooting at me and I'm still shredding your ST, which is almost as good in a lot of cases. When you come back around, the blind is going to keep you from accurately pinpointing the exact component you want, which helps in spreading damage, which helps to even out the fact that they're not PPFLD.

I'll repeat what I've said in other RAC threads: yeah, you're not going to win tournaments with the things. But I've got more than a few screenshots of doing more than fine in T2 QP with a 2xRAC-5 Bushwacker. I wouldn't say no to some buffs, but they are nowhere near as bad as so many people seem to think they are.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5929023

Averaging around 200 damage per KMDD on those. Now of course it would be a little bit less, when you factor in assists that weren't KMDDs and other things, but a typical heavy 'mech has about 132 HP in the CT before quirks or skills, so this is consistent with fairly reliably coring them out. You have to finesse it, you have to pick your shots and make sure you've got a good opportunity to unload on someone and you have to have the aim skill to track with that torso, but clearly you can make it work.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Shifty McSwift, on 03 November 2017 - 03:32 AM, said:

Then is it really a useful thing? Or just a bonus side effect for the firer that sucks for most people getting hit? Why do RACs do this effect best? Surely the point might be to make them a decent weapon rather than a mostly trolling gun right?

Fk it nevermind whatever.

I am sorry to say I don't understand your complaint. The shake and blinding is a secondary effect of using a RAC no different than the secondary effect of a PPC disabling ECM for a few seconds when it hits. It is one of the reasons why someone might want to mount a RAC, i.e. for the suppression effect caused by shake and blinding. It is a characteristic of the weapon, no more no less, not some FU to the players getting hit by them. I mean the game would be damn boring if the only effect any weapons had was your paper doll changing colors until you died.

Also it isn't "Trolling", it is effectively using a suppression weapon to suppress the enemy. You get hit by the shake and light show, you want to be anywhere but getting hit by the shake and light show. I have effectively held an entire flank by myself against 3-4 enemy mechs trying to push into the rear of my team simply by spraying and praying a RAC/5 into any and all of them who tried to poke out around the corner. Didn't do a hell of alot of damage, but that stream of RAC/5 shells hitting on and around them surely convinced them it would be bad idea to push into me and overrun me which I they easily could have done if I wasn't disorientating them with suppression fire from my RAC/5.

So sorry it sucks to be on the receiving end of a RAC or two but the whole point is that if should be sucking if your on the receiving end of a RAC or two. It shouldn't be something you can just push through and ignore, especially since the effective (not Theoretical) DPS on RAC's is poor due to it spraying all that DPS all over your target.

[Shifty McSwift]

Sjorpha, on 03 November 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

I think standard without viable control lists are much more boring, current standard is all aggro at comp level and has been for a good while now. A healthy metagame has at least one control or prison deck being viable, and there should also be viable combo, midrange and tempo decks.

Modern is much more healthy right now with a very varied top level metagame, and prison decks like lantern control, sun and moon etc are a big reason it's so healthy, those decks police the aggro and combo decks so they have to run interactive spells and sideboards. Modern is also the most popular format, more popular than standard, as in more people play it casually and modern events have higher turnout etc. Standard only dominates competitive play because WOTC wants it that way so they can use it as marketing for new sets.

I like land destruction/disruption, you still have a lot of that in Modern and it's all the better for it. None of these strategies are dominating top tier play, but they are there to punish players if they don't plan to beat them and that's very good. If you run too few basics you lose to blood moon, which keeps the and bases from getting too greedy etc.

Compared to standard where it's basically who can play the biggest or most creatures faster, the fact that standard has no good counterspells and no good land or graveyard hate is really bad for it. This is what happens when a company caves in to this kind of complaints, it dumbs the game down.

Also in magic playing control takes a lot more skill than aggro, it's a lot harder to play a competitive reactive game plan than a proactive one. This includes land distruption and other lockdown strategies, it's not easy to pull off which is why they have never been competitively dominant to any large degree even in metas where control is strong. Aggro is more popular precisely because it's easier to play.

Pff, grass is greener BS.. Are you the same kind of guy who yells "easymode" at builds that you see to be "less skill"? In reference to magic again, you really think modern is more popular of a mode that standard? Also the point of standard rotations is not only to shift meta and keep their sales healthy, I probably prefer legacy games and the like but standard is and has been the go to format for quite a while now in the competition/tournament scene and in general play... Also also.. Standard as "dumbed down" sigh wtf man they are the same cards with differing restrictions.

But I wouldn't want to insult your precious "all pure skill" based control decks that required ultimate smarts, like they aren't the secondary if not primary meta of the whole game, yeah no, it must be because all other deck builds are "easymode for dummies" and you are just a struggling tote pro with grand skill, making the "unpopular" work there. Fricken control decks lol.

[Shifty McSwift]

Viktor Drake, on 03 November 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

I am sorry to say I don't understand your complaint. The shake and blinding is a secondary effect of using a RAC no different than the secondary effect of a PPC disabling ECM for a few seconds when it hits. It is one of the reasons why someone might want to mount a RAC, i.e. for the suppression effect caused by shake and blinding. It is a characteristic of the weapon, no more no less, not some FU to the players getting hit by them. I mean the game would be damn boring if the only effect any weapons had was your paper doll changing colors until you died.

Also it isn't "Trolling", it is effectively using a suppression weapon to suppress the enemy. You get hit by the shake and light show, you want to be anywhere but getting hit by the shake and light show. I have effectively held an entire flank by myself against 3-4 enemy mechs trying to push into the rear of my team simply by spraying and praying a RAC/5 into any and all of them who tried to poke out around the corner. Didn't do a hell of alot of damage, but that stream of RAC/5 shells hitting on and around them surely convinced them it would be bad idea to push into me and overrun me which I they easily could have done if I wasn't disorientating them with suppression fire from my RAC/5.

So sorry it sucks to be on the receiving end of a RAC or two but the whole point is that if should be sucking if your on the receiving end of a RAC or two. It shouldn't be something you can just push through and ignore, especially since the effective (not Theoretical) DPS on RAC's is poor due to it spraying all that DPS all over your target.

Well here's an inverted anecdote for you then, I turned a corner to see an RAC boat about 400m away so I crossed in and out of direct LOS to keep him occupied on me, and instead of fleeing he stayed to fight and got ex'd by my short range volleys while barely making my armor yellow "OP" he speaks in all.. So I guess my response would be "sorry it sucks to be on the recieving end of a meta close range build, but thats what you get when you pick mediocre loadouts and then stay to fight at close range like you aren't severely sub optimal in those conditions"?

The second difference is I really don't care, the effect of it seems to be most annoying for older PCs so meh, the one time I noticed it seemed over the top was when I was shoulder tanking a guy with an RAC and just could not see, blinded by shoulder hits made me think, "that doesnt seem right". People somehow magically mistake that for me complaining it is OP. The fact is quite the opposite, I think RACs mostly suck and that the blinding effect wasn't at all intentional.

So yeah shame on me for pointing out something that negatively effects others far more than it does me, I should just LOL and make fun of the suckers it does effect, while continuing to ignore the weapon system as at all valid, and giggle at that too while I'm at it.

[Snowbluff]

Nema Nabojiv, on 03 November 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

One RAC5 have, according to smurfy, dps of 10.91. Thats like the highest in the game at the moment, and its roughly equiualent to 4x ERPPCs or 2x LRM20. And people usually bring two which does the dps of what, 8 erppc.

Of course there are downsides such as heat and jam bar and accuracy, but still it is very strong DPS-wise and it has blinding effect on top of that. So, yeah, lets push for dps buff because the highest dps is apparently "too weak"

Also, clan RAC or riot.

I agree that they should be buffed but not in terms of damage. I think the heat and jam bar build up should be buffs.

Also yes to clan RACs. They've slightly longer range but take more slots so they're basically balanced.
I will gladly sell you an order of let's say, 30 RACs when we release the tech. #DiamondShark4Life

Edited by Snowbluff, 03 November 2017 - 09:22 AM.

[Captain Polux]

Just posting to say that duel RACs on a Bushwacker is fun. Watching someone trying to scoot away as quickly as they can when getting pelted makes me grin like idiot.

[GrimRiver]

My GPU died so I've been using my CPU's Intel 4600gGFX for right now and it doesn't blind me all that much.(I get 30ishFPS calm, 25ishFPS fighting)

RAC's is best used on a fast mobile mech or slim profile(Bushwacker) mech due to RAC's egregiously long wind up time, long bar cooldown and wind up time to fire again makes it a limited weapon, also RAC jamming increases that time even more.

Only a few select mechs can really run RAC's decently enough, for others it's a waste of time and armor trying to facetank to get enough damage out with RAC's.

So RAC's blinding shaking effect is it's only saving grave when shot very near the cotpit.

Also to point out I don't hear too much about RAC's bad or good, so they may be in a good spot at the moment.

Edited by GrimRiver, 03 November 2017 - 09:26 AM.

[Helsbane]

Thermal mode...

[Shifty McSwift]

ThoseWhoFearTomorrow, on 03 November 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

Just posting to say that duel RACs on a Bushwacker is fun. Watching someone trying to scoot away as quickly as they can when getting pelted makes me grin like idiot.

#trollweapons

Not particularly effective but I do laugh when I chase someone who literally can't respond because he doesn't know wtf is going on and can't outrun or see what is shooting him.

Yeah f those noobs lel.... 2 seconds later "game is dying no players" >.<

[Damnedtroll]

With a RAC you get the attention of your enemy fast, you cannot hide your stream of bullet... so blinding a little is useful !

[Trenchbird]

I'd say that's (Blinding+Shake) what RACs are best for. I facetanked a Quickdraw IV-4 the other day while he just shot RAC5s into my face while I kept getting CT+RT shots on him with SRM-6s; The entire time, I was more annoyed by shake and flash than actually worried about the damage I was receiving (Which wasn't much, honestly. He stripped my RT of armor and that's about it.)

[Sjorpha]

Shifty McSwift, on 03 November 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Pff, grass is greener BS.. Are you the same kind of guy who yells "easymode" at builds that you see to be "less skill"? In reference to magic again, you really think modern is more popular of a mode that standard? Also the point of standard rotations is not only to shift meta and keep their sales healthy, I probably prefer legacy games and the like but standard is and has been the go to format for quite a while now in the competition/tournament scene and in general play... Also also.. Standard as "dumbed down" sigh wtf man they are the same cards with differing restrictions.

But I wouldn't want to insult your precious "all pure skill" based control decks that required ultimate smarts, like they aren't the secondary if not primary meta of the whole game, yeah no, it must be because all other deck builds are "easymode for dummies" and you are just a struggling tote pro with grand skill, making the "unpopular" work there. Fricken control decks lol.

I did not say other decks ar easymode or that there is anything wrong with playing easy decks for that matter, so I have no idea why you read all that stuff into my post.

My point is that good control and prison decks are good for the metagame. I think current standard has a too large percentage aggro and there is no tier 1 control deck right now.

I like standard too, a rotating format serves an iportant purpose especially for comp play.

[Shifty McSwift]

Sjorpha, on 03 November 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

I did not say other decks ar easymode or that there is anything wrong with playing easy decks for that matter, so I have no idea why you read all that stuff into my post.

My point is that good control and prison decks are good for the metagame. I think current standard has a too large percentage aggro and there is no tier 1 control deck right now.

I like standard too, a rotating format serves an iportant purpose especially for comp play.

I guess it was these parts of your post that made me think otherwise?

Sjorpha, on 03 November 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

I think standard without viable control lists are much more boring,

Modern is much more healthy right now with a very varied top level metagame,

Modern is also the most popular format, more popular than standard,

they are there to punish players if they don't plan to beat them and that's very good.

Compared to standard where it's basically who can play the biggest or most creatures faster

Also in magic playing control takes a lot more skill than aggro,

Aggro is more popular precisely because it's easier to play.

You know, where you say your deck choice takes more skill and that others are easier... Relative scale? Specific reaction based decks might have issues like that but, there's also reliability to degrees too, counterspell is always useful, instant draw in that same regard when combined has consistent reliability. Boardwipes will consistently deal with a % of decks, rush creature styles tend to be popular in tournaments in particular as cheaper spells in general are considered of higher value with generally the best value coming from creatures, but that also applies to cheap control too.

I am not even defending rush decks here, one of my favourite decks is a wall based deck lol and none of my favourite decks are creature rush, but to say they are taking the "easy" choice or that your deck requires more skill is just a copout, most of magic is based on the luck of your first 7 cards weighed against the efficiency of your deck overall.

[Trissila]

Shifty McSwift, on 03 November 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Well here's an inverted anecdote for you then, I turned a corner to see an RAC boat about 400m away so I crossed in and out of direct LOS to keep him occupied on me, and instead of fleeing he stayed to fight and got ex'd by my short range volleys while barely making my armor yellow "OP" he speaks in all.. So I guess my response would be "sorry it sucks to be on the recieving end of a meta close range build, but thats what you get when you pick mediocre loadouts and then stay to fight at close range like you aren't severely sub optimal in those conditions"?

Catten Hart, on 03 November 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

I'd say that's (Blinding+Shake) what RACs are best for. I facetanked a Quickdraw IV-4 the other day while he just shot RAC5s into my face while I kept getting CT+RT shots on him with SRM-6s; The entire time, I was more annoyed by shake and flash than actually worried about the damage I was receiving (Which wasn't much, honestly. He stripped my RT of armor and that's about it.)

RACs have more range than SRMs for a reason. If they were trying to tank your SRMs at optimal SRM range they were doing it wrong. They were also doing it wrong if they were trying to peek-trade you with a weapon system that has substantial spin-up time.

If you try to use a PPC boat at under 90 meters, you're also doing it wrong. Weapon systems have weaknesses and strengths, and if you don't play to the strengths of your weapons, you're gonna have a bad time. With RACs, you need to get an angle where you can maintain fire on the target and not while inside of the optimal range of the one weapon system that can reasonably compete with you face-to-face.

GrimRiver, on 03 November 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

RAC's is best used on a fast mobile mech or slim profile(Bushwacker) mech due to RAC's egregiously long wind up time, long bar cooldown and wind up time to fire again makes it a limited weapon, also RAC jamming increases that time even more.

Only a few select mechs can really run RAC's decently enough, for others it's a waste of time and armor trying to facetank to get enough damage out with RAC's.

Eh, spin-up time can be managed with situational awareness. You need to know where the enemy is via your team's network (or educated guesses) so that you can pre-spin as you're coming around a corner or cresting a hill. Cutting that extra second of wind-up time out of the equation makes a HUGE difference. Heat- and jam-wise though... meh. With cooling skills, I've never overheated before the guns jam, and it's rare that they jam before they put out a really nice chunk of damage -- they usually go right up to the top of the heat bar before they lock out on me. And they do run hot for ballistics, but in terms of damage potential, they're fine; getting a full heat bar usually nets me a stripped and orange/red CT on whatever I was shooting at.

Though I do agree on the second point. Only certain 'mechs can really run RACs well; the Bushwacker is the perfect RAC-5 platform IMO.

[Jun Watarase]

RACs do massive damage if you have at least two. Doesnt matter if you are an assault and torso twisting, two can take out your side torso before they jam. They are not useful in comp play because comp play is 12 man laser vomit poking firing lines though.

[Queen of England]

You can reduce the blinding effect in a few ways. First, make sure you have particles turned down to the minimum setting.

On maps where thermal works (i.e., not hot maps) you can generally see through the blasts with thermal.

Moving laterally or towards the attack reduces the effect, while backing up away from the attacker worsens the effect - keep moving forwards or sideways against RACs. (Moving laterally also interferes the the RAC's accuracy, as they have a fairly low velocity).