21 replies to this topic

[Wild Kadabra]

Greetings all! As many of you know (and for those of you who don't) ATMs or Advanced Tactical Missiles are a clan missile system that uses 3 different types of ammo to achieve different damage and range profiles (ER, Std and HE). At least that is how they work in the table top. In MWO PGI had an interesting and not far off idea of making them missiles with decreasing range profiles, however the way they currently are they only represent 2/3s of what ATMs are supposed to be, missing what is perhaps there most popular feature in the table top High Explosive ammo, the hardest hitting but shortest range ammo, which has no minimum range, but a dreadfully short range.

Plz understand that this is not another PLZ BUFF MY CLAN X SYSTEM thread. I can understand how the current ATMs would be quite OP without the minimum range. I play both IS and Clan and of course want game balance, I would hate the to see half of my hangar become obsolete because clan becomes too OP. I would like however for the weapon system to feel more closely to what it is supposed to be rather than just being LRMs with more PoW, and be a Hybrid System of Long range and Short range as they are meant to be. I would be ok with number adjustments to damage for balance purposes.

In the case of the LBX autocannons for example, another weapon meant to use different types of ammo, we got regular ACs for clans emulating standard ammo. In the case of HE ATMs this could perhaps be an option. Making ATMs a short range options for mechs that cannot boat srms because of limited missile slots.

Another option would be perhaps having the current minimum range then having ATMs work again in 90/70ish-0m for HE charge (deadzone between 180-90/70ish m). Have then require a lock on to do the damage however so they cannot simply be dumbfired like srms and require a bit more facetime.

This are just a few ideas, I would like to hear how would YOU make HE ATMs.

[Brain Cancer]

How would you make them?

Get an engine that can properly switch fire modes.

Since we still don't have real LB-X, MWO's doesn't function. Nor will the IS MML launchers.

[Wild Kadabra]

Brain Cancer, on 03 November 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

How would you make them?

Get an engine that can properly switch fire modes.

Since we still don't have real LB-X, MWO's doesn't function. Nor will the IS MML launchers.

This of course would be the optimal solution, but since it does not seem like they will be making this happen anyday soon, I am referring with the current confines of how the game is currently working

[Stinger554]

Outside of creating a new weapon system. I would just give current ATMs no minimum and instead use a ramp-down on the damage starting from 120m similar to Clan LRMs, but you know with ATM damage numbers. 3-2-1 or something like that.

The minimum range is an issue that goes against the whole idea of the weapon system so it kinda needs to go.

[Brain Cancer]

Honestly, the best you could hope for is 50m damage falloff stages similar to the ones you get at medium and long range, going from 120-70 and again from 70-20, rather than deadzoning the weapon entirely. It'd represent the second and third stages arming, since as-is the ATM is a hybrid of all three ammo types and two of them carry a 120m minrange penalty.

[Stinger554]

Brain Cancer, on 03 November 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

Honestly, the best you could hope for is 50m damage falloff stages similar to the ones you get at medium and long range, going from 120-70 and again from 70-20, rather than deadzoning the weapon entirely. It'd represent the second and third stages arming, since as-is the ATM is a hybrid of all three ammo types and two of them carry a 120m minrange penalty.

Yep personally I'd gladly give up the ability to hit out to 1000+m in exchange for such a system(as firing ATMs at that range is a waste of ammo anyways).

Edited by Stinger554, 03 November 2017 - 12:22 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Eh, there's times where I like being able to chase badly wounded targets outside the usual 600m or so engagement envelope, even if it's hideously inefficient.

I rangeboost to increase my 3/2 damage "sweet spots" anyway. It's hilarious when some shmuck thinks I can't possibly get missiles past 1000m....and I start ticking off the AC/2 Mauler.

[HenryFA]

set max range to 750m
reduce min range to 50m

[VonBruinwald]

Remove the minimum range but drop them to 2dmg at short/medium range and 1 damage at long range.

[Khobai]

ATMs need 50% more missile health so AMS doesnt rip them apart

ATMs should have NO min range whatsoever because theyre supposed to be capable at ALL ranges

ATMs should do a flat 2 damage at all ranges instead of 3/2/1

ATM max range should be 810m not 1100m


"But ATMs would be better than LRMs then"

not really because LRMs can indirect fire and ATMs cant (at least not well). that makes a huge difference.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2017 - 05:15 PM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 03 November 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

ATMs need 50% more missile health so AMS doesnt rip them apart

ATMs should have NO min range whatsoever because theyre supposed to be capable at ALL ranges

ATMs should do a flat 2 damage at all ranges instead of 3/2/1

ATM max range should be 810m not 1100m


"But ATMs would be better than LRMs then"

not really because LRMs can indirect fire and ATMs cant (at least not well). that makes a huge difference.

Yeah, those numbers will need tweaking then cause I'll be running ATMs all day erry day. No min range is very powerful.

[FantasticMrDark]

I got no idea how you balance ATM without completely invalidating streaks.

Edited by FantasticMrDark, 03 November 2017 - 07:18 PM.

[Asym]

Here again, we're stuck between what Lore and MW history set up as baseline expectations and what PGI creaeted that satisfies most but infuriates those players who better understand the origins of the MW universe..

I believe that ATM "just aren't right" and that that is on purpose... Strategically, you can't have a FPS arena with truly powerful weapons systems that aren't "first person"..... So, LRM's, ATM, SSRM, SRM's all get nerf'd to the point no one uses them; especially in competition.... Such a shame.....that you can't have what has been in books and board games for decades and logically correct so that a few can have an arena FPS somebody thinks they can build an e-Sports around.....

The answer to the riddle of balance isn't what you think it is.....the answer is the opposite of balance because when all of the MW weapons systems are "un-nerf'd" and are reverted back to their full capabilities, that comes from the Universe that created the entire story! It wasn't about balance at all and it was an extremely dangerous place and took extreme skill just to survive.... The Clans have genetically enhanced pilots, superior tech and skewed tactics and the IS had flexible tactics, below pariety tech and larger numbers.....The cold war scenario and think of a "Team Yankee" world.... How to make ATM's HE: enable them and force people to "think" versus "just point and shoot." Just my opinion.

Edited by Asym, 03 November 2017 - 07:48 PM.

[Khobai]

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Yeah, those numbers will need tweaking then cause I'll be running ATMs all day erry day. No min range is very powerful.

wait you mean clan players might actually considering using missile weapons instead of laser vomit all the time?

id say thats objective accomplished

and no the numbers dont need tweaking. thats where they need to be for clan players to actually want to use them. no min range. 2 damage per missile. anything less and theres no point.

missile weapons are very weak in the game right now. they need to be much stronger.

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I got no idea how you balance ATM without completely invalidating streaks.

streaks are already invalidated.

its better to have useless streaks and useful ATMs than to have useless streaks AND useless ATMs.

better to save one than have both be awful.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2017 - 08:21 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Khobai, on 03 November 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

ATMs need 50% more missile health so AMS doesnt rip them apart

40%, since you get 12 ATMs for every 20 LRMs tonnagewise. Plus they're slightly higher on velocity. More importantly, STOP STREAMFIRING ATMs. Streamfire was a nerf put in to make Clan LRMs different in performance from IS ones. There is no IS ATM to compare it to. Yet. (MMLs, someday...)

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ATMs should have NO min range whatsoever because theyre supposed to be capable at ALL ranges

ATMs should do a flat 2 damage at all ranges instead of 3/2/1

Yeah...no. This makes them a direct-fire LRM clone in terms of damage/ton of ammo that loses IDF mode for better velocity.

...speaking of which, Artemis should deliver better velocity in direct-fire mode. Velocity is accuracy+ for guided missiles in MWO.

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ATM max range should be 810m not 1100m

ATMs outrange LRMs. Wanna trim those down too?

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"But ATMs would be better than LRMs then"

not really because LRMs can indirect fire and ATMs cant (at least not well). that makes a huge difference.

If it wasn't for the AMS vulnerability, CLRMs would barely make an impression outside of the potato fields.

[Khobai]

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Yeah...no. This makes them a direct-fire LRM clone in terms of damage/ton of ammo that loses IDF mode for better velocity.

Exactly. And thats how ATMs should work. ATMs should be direct-fire LRM clones that are better at short and medium range but worse at long range and give up the ability to indirect fire.

ATMs are meant to be a versatile jack-of-all-trades missile thats capable at all ranges but dont complete with more specialized weapons like SRMs or LRMs in their specific range brackets.

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ATMs outrange LRMs. Wanna trim those down too?

ATMs should not outrange LRMs. LRMs should be the longest range missiles. LRMs should also have much higher velocity than ATMs so they can hit targets better at longer ranges. It makes no sense that ATMs have better velocity, that is completely backwards.

ECM stealth also needs to be removed because stealth should not be a function of ECM.

Missile weapons need to be unnerfed. There is no reason missile weapons need as many counters as they have.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2017 - 08:41 PM.

[Papaspud]

I think they need no minimum range, stay at 1000 meters max, more health, and maybe up the damage- at least 5 per missile out to 500 meters, cause clan!!! they should be better.

[Khobai]

ATMs should be the best overall missile weapon in the game if nothing else.

They weigh more per missile tube than any other missile weapon so thats fair.

[Thaddeus Necromancer]

Decrease minimum range: 80m
Increase velocity: +10%
Increase firing arc: +10 degrees
Increase missle health: +25%
Maximum range: no change

[Brain Cancer]

Khobai, on 03 November 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

Exactly. And thats how ATMs should work. ATMs should be direct-fire LRM clones that are better at short and medium range but worse at long range and give up the ability to indirect fire.

ATMs are meant to be a versatile jack-of-all-trades missile thats capable at all ranges but dont complete with more specialized weapons like SRMs or LRMs in their specific range brackets.

Actually, ATMs are designed to be better than both LRMs and SRMs in either damage or range, but pay for it with fewer tubes for the weight. And the LRM is the jack-of-all-trades missile in TT, seeing as the ATM is limited to a single (explosive) warhead type.

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ATMs should not outrange LRMs. LRMs should be the longest range missiles. LRMs should also have much higher velocity than ATMs so they can hit targets better at longer ranges. It makes no sense that ATMs have better velocity, that is completely backwards.

ER ATMs outrange LRMs- but in turn are outranged by "extended" LRMs, which use a similar booster-missile arrangement to exceed the reach of standard LRM launchers. ER ATM ammo gets 180m past standard LRMs, but IS extended LRM launchers get another 270m beyond THAT. For that matter, Clan Streak LRMs, which are obscenely accurate (and direct fire) get similar superior range vs. standard LRMs, getting 210m further. Of course, the real compensator for all those other systems is the standard LRM launcher can use far more options than standard explosive rounds for which everyone else is stuck with.

And the fact that they can't is another reason why PGI's fail at ammo switching is such a problem. The LRM (and even more so, the MML) are designed to be general-purpose launchers capable of projecting a wide variety of useful payloads to the battlefield. That's their "thing".

Both ATMs and LRMs seriously need velocity boosts if they're ever expected to be accurate out to their "effective" range, though. But that's a different story.

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ECM stealth also needs to be removed because stealth should not be a function of ECM.

Missile weapons need to be unnerfed. There is no reason missile weapons need as many counters as they have.

I won't disagree with the really weird things PGI turned ECM into being revisited. ECM was supposed to counter advanced functions, not basic ones like missile locks.