25 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

There's been something that's been bugging me about the game for 5 years now... and while I have known about it from time to time, I'd forget and remember again later on.

That issue is two fold and both involve the same issue.

Currently, if you press A or D to turn, you turn at full speed. Instantly and jarringly. This is also true of the demo footage in control of the Shadow Hawk on MW5: Mercs.

This.
Is.
BAD.

It makes minor turning adjustments a jarring experience of a sudden jerk, throwing off engagements to the point that this game could never hope to become an actual E-Sport (as a battle between two competent players can be ruined the moment one needs to make a tiny turn adjustment just to jar and throw everything off; that's not a failure in skill on the competitor in your tournament, that is a failure of the developer to provide a solid user control scheme).

In past Mechwarrior games, in Star Siege, Earth Siege, and in most quality vehicular and mecha games and simulators... turning starts slow and builds up momentum to full speed. The games that fail to do this date back to 1996, such as Virtua On and the first Armored Core, and those games very clearly had that among their most jarring problems. I mean even Krazy Ivan, a really poor early PS1 mech game with multiplayer requiring two separate PS1s connected via a port.. had a momentum buildup for turning and it was made BEFORE analog sticks existed!!

Speaking of... that brings me to the second issue.
MWO has analog capability for throttle acceleration and deceleration... and that's it.
The joystick control is bad in part due to the lack of analog functionality NATIVE to the CryEngine which exists for the mouse... but not when using the joystick for aiming.
Furthermore, the left/right turning also lacks analog functionality to turn slowly or at full speed.

These are absolutely crucial controls. Every E-Sport of a first person shooter nature has these functions. To lack them...really shows PGI's lack of commitment to provide a quality show and experience for spectators and players alike.

Part of E-sports is promoting fair competitions of skill between players, but those that need minor turns are put in very unfair situations while those that need major turns are not hindered by this control scheme flop.

Another part of E-sports is to provide spectators with something genuinely interesting to watch. Mechs that twitch suddenly and repeatedly as a player tries to make a minor turn, throwing his aim off by 2 or 3 crosshairs each time and missing when he shouldn't be missing due to the jerkiness of the game's turning mechanics... is a jarring, unimmersive experience.

Personally, I don't care about your E-sport fantasies... but that is a pretty big thing that needs to be fixed. What I do care about is MW5: Mercs, which has the same jarring issue. It needs to be addressed, hopefully before MechCon.

[El Bandito]

Yep, sudden turning messes with crosshairs a lot, especially if you got all your weapons on the torsi mount.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

What you mean to say is:

Why the **** is your leg movement not independent of your torso movement?

Move Torso, legs aren't affected.

Move Legs, Torso gets dragged along with them.

Edited by Ex Atlas Overlord, 04 November 2017 - 07:47 PM.

[Koniving]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 04 November 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

What you mean to say is:

Why the **** is your leg movement not independent of your torso movement?

Move Torso, legs aren't affected.

Move Legs, Torso gets dragged along with them.

There is that, too. But no I do mean the leg movement is jerky, it is instantly at full speed and this causes a host of issues. Compare to Mechwarriors 3 and 4 and you have a turn that starts slow and builds momentum. We'd have fewer hit registration issues in regards to sudden turning, too.

[SFC174]

Might encourage more light piloting. I find that piloting the fastest and quickest turning lights (locust, etc.) is very off putting from a visual perspective. Sure, the enemy feels the same way trying to shoot you, but smoother turning would be nice.

[Khobai]

there should be a toggle that lets you decouple your torso from your legs so your torso doesnt turn when your legs turn

that would allow lights to move and shoot weapons in a different direction without constantly having to make aim adjustments while turning their legs

whenever I play a light I pretty much always prefer arm weapons for that reason. the only torso weapons I really use on lights are machine guns. but that change would make using torso weapons easier for lights.

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2017 - 10:04 PM.

[Alcom Isst]

Koniving, on 04 November 2017 - 06:30 PM, said:

MWO has analog capability for throttle acceleration and deceleration... and that's it.
The joystick control is bad in part due to the lack of analog functionality NATIVE to the CryEngine which exists for the mouse... but not when using the joystick for aiming.
Furthermore, the left/right turning also lacks analog functionality to turn slowly or at full speed.

MechWarrior Online has analog inputs for Torso Left/Right, Torso Up/Down, Turning, and Throttle that all scale with the input.

Note that the deadzone slider doesn't work (CFG Option i_joystick_deadzone does though), axis don't have independent dead-zone, and there's a weird step in the analog input that increases with the deadzone, but a lot of that can be worked around with 3rd party profile software.

Edited by Alcom Isst, 05 November 2017 - 10:31 PM.

[Koniving]

Alcom Isst, on 05 November 2017 - 10:25 PM, said:

MechWarrior Online has analog inputs for Torso Left/Right, Torso Up/Down, Turning, and Throttle that all scale with the input.

Note that the deadzone slider doesn't work (CFG Option i_joystick_deadzone does though), axis don't have independent dead-zone, and there's a weird step in the analog input that increases with the deadzone, but a lot of that can be worked around with 3rd party profile software.

They do not actually perform analog, however. None of them do except Throttle.

If I press slightly to the left, I go full speed to the left.
If I press slightly to the right, I go full speed to the right.
If I tilt slightly down, it goes jarring faster than my mouse can actually aim so to make slight adjustments to my aim, I have to do what my father said his Grandma had to do in order to drive slowly.... Gas Pedal all the way to the floor, slam on the brakes and release the gas. Release the brakes and slam the gas. Release the gas and slam the brakes. Repeat until at destination. Adjust as necessary if you end up going beyond your destination.

This is using both a Thrustmaster Hotas X and a PS3 controller.

Even if I assign the forward/backward motion of the throttle stick to turning left and right, it's all or nothing no matter where I set the throttlestick.

[Alcom Isst]

Koniving, on 05 November 2017 - 10:33 PM, said:

If I press slightly to the left, I go full speed to the left.
If I press slightly to the right, I go full speed to the right.

This is using a Thrustmaster T.16000m. There is a definite analog turn, though the minimum turn rate is still not as gentle as it should be. Also, increasing the joystick deadzone also increases the minimum turn rate... that's also kinda bad.

[Koniving]

So they've improved somewhat. Shocking. I may have to find out what third party mods you had to do... because this is what I get...

And you can see in MW5... it has the same issue.

The gradually increasing momentum from MW3 and MW4 should be put into MWO for keyboard users. The gradual increase in speed is good for minor turn adjustments, it's like the difference between driving in GTA with a keyboard versus a joystick. Past Mechwarriors gave us that good feel even if we just used the keyboard.

This is using my throttle stick to turn so that there is no doubt that I should have analog functionality.

Edited by Koniving, 05 November 2017 - 11:19 PM.

[Alcom Isst]

Koniving, on 05 November 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

So they've improved somewhat. Shocking. I may have to find out what third party mods you had to do... because this is what I get...

I don't use third party mods for joystick input. I just use TARGET GUI to add a slight deadzone so returning to center is easier. It's a profiler, not a mod.

Edited by Alcom Isst, 05 November 2017 - 10:59 PM.

[Koniving]

Updated with link.

Even if I set the mouse as my analog turn control...

[ocular tb]

I use a Saitek ST290 for throttle and turning without any mods and it seems fine. Haven't tried tweaking any in-game settings but where it's at by default is good enough for me. Next time I can get on I'll try different settings and see what happens. Can't help when it comes to stick aiming though since I still use a mouse for that.

[Koniving]

Could it just be an issue with lights? I don't seem to have the issue with assaults now that I've tried it.

Either way it would be nice if there's some momentum buildup in keyboard controls as well. Otherwise (when the joystick works as intended for all), joysticks will be superior in every way for piloting. (and able to rival the mouse in gunnery.)

[Athom83]

The reason it seems so jarring is because horizontal stabilizers are LostTech.

[ocular tb]

I play lights most of the time so it’s not a light issue in my case.

[Appogee]

I never thought of it before, but yes, turning should have an acceleration factor.

This would be far more realistic.

It would also assist Lights significantly, which isn't a bad thing.

Edited by Appogee, 06 November 2017 - 06:13 AM.

[Alcom Isst]

Koniving, on 06 November 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

Could it just be an issue with lights? I don't seem to have the issue with assaults now that I've tried it.

Here is a slightly revised version of a graph I made like... 3 years ago.

MWO's Analog Input

There's a step in MWO's analog input that gets more exasperated the faster a mech is or the larger MWO's analog deadzone is (via the user.cfg file).


Here is what it should look like.

Proper Analog Input

Edited by Alcom Isst, 06 November 2017 - 07:12 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Appogee, on 06 November 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

I never thought of it before, but yes, turning should have an acceleration factor.

This would be far more realistic.

It would also assist Lights significantly, which isn't a bad thing.

Depending on how fast it accelerates and/or whether you can toggle it off, it can also greatly harm Lights since it will slow down the rate of directional change. AKA, the jukes are less jukey.

[Nightbird]

This is good, it's not tires you're using, but legs. Try jogging and turning, instantaneous. The only thing that they could change is delay the turn until both feet are touching the ground, you can't turn mid stride.

No complaints if they given finer control to joystick users, but it's a downgrade imo.