221 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

I've been giving this lots of thought as of late and IMO it's not the Clan vrs IS XL engines or the heat sinks that cause most of the issues..

It's Clan alpha's due to massive hard point counts, aka Alpha warrior online. (IMO ED needs to make a come back which i've been working on a post about but not ready yet but i digress)


I think the major cause or the clan and IS balance are more simple than equipment, I really think it's the whole OMNI mech system that is what's leading the charge.

One thing i've noticed about the Meta/Top mechs, and why they are typically clan mechs for the most part is because of the omni system. I think back about all the top mechs over time and how often the meta swapped, yet many of those mechs just swap to the new meta, by swapping out omni pods. missiles the new meta, well swap some pods, Ballistics are in favor, swap pods, energy is back, well boat up lasers.. and the cycle repeats.

the IS just have less options over all when it comes to this, and you need to buy a new mech, and kit it out, but often have sub par options in comparison. clans just swap around parts.


So basically access to more hard points and the ability to swap them when the meta changes leads to much of the balance issues. Yes i realize there are no fixes in this thread, but i think identifying the real problem is a good start.

Thoughts?

Edited by JC Daxion, 05 November 2017 - 05:44 AM.

[El Bandito]

JC Daxion, on 05 November 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

I've been giving this lots of thought as of late and IMO it's not the Clan vrs IS XL engines or the heat sinks that cause most of the issues..

It's Clan alpha's due to massive hard point counts, aka Alpha warrior online. (IMO ED needs to make a come back which i've been working on a post about but not ready yet but i digress)

What makes you think that ST death proof 2 slot per ST CXL, and 2 slot Clan DHS (which allows Clan mechs to mount 1/3 more external DHS compared to IS mechs), and 7 slot Endo/Ferro, are not contributing to the higher alpha of Clanners? Cause they do. You won't see a 60-70+ alpha Clan heavy as popular choice, if it didn't have the Clan tech enabling it to mount 24+ DHS on it. Not to mention Clan weapons costing less weight and slots in general.

JC Daxion, on 05 November 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

So basically access to more hard points and the ability to swap them when the meta changes leads to much of the balance issues. Yes i realize there are no fixes in this thread, but i think identifying the real problem is a good start.

As for your omnipod comment, it is true to a degree. By design, omnimechs will become increasingly stronger, the more variants PGI releases. Hellbringer chassis was improved by the release of Hellbringer-F, and then was further improved by the release of Hellbringer-P. Not to mention how much new variants have boosted the Mist Lynx from the worst Clan Light to one of the most popular choice for FP. Omnimechs will keep getting improved, the more PGI releases omnimech variants.

Of course, IS will get their own omnimechs soon, but they will be no where near as good as Clan omnis, in terms of firepower. You know why? TECH DISPARITY. The very thing you tried to trivialize.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 November 2017 - 08:26 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

I believe it's not the whole omni system as it's pretty much trash compare to the battlemech system that is more versatile than the omni system and it huge restrictions, swapping pods for the most optimal is alright but that's truly nothing compare to it's clan battlemech counterparts who can change it's internals more freely and not worry about locked equipment, or engines.

And right now clan mechs especially clan battlemechs are pushing the damage scaling to insane heights, just look at the Arctic Wolf between the battlemech and omnimech, it's clear the battlemech is far superior to it's counterpart in every way.

[Bombast]

Those damn omnipods...

[adamts01]

Cone of fire

[davoodoo]

Really? i thought this was the reason
CLAN DOUBLE HEAT SINK 2 1.0 5.00 Clan 0.15 0.20 1.5 12,000

Edited by davoodoo, 05 November 2017 - 06:04 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Hard points.
High hard points on heavier mechs in a given weight class.

e.g. Gauss/PPC "meta" was only the "meta" because of a few mechs. All of them were clan. Most were mechs with predominately high hard points all were 75 tons or more because they have the weight to run the weapons AND the DHS and the big engines for the mobility to make the whole package perfect.

Gauss vomit and laser vomit too. What are the "problem" mechs and builds? What do they all have in common. Same issues.

I am not saying that high hard points are the only issue but when comparing tech...it isn't just tech. Its the inherent structure of the mechs themselves, and for what matters most in this game, right now most of the mechs perceived as being OP or the best, have high hard points and the weight to run massive alphas (relative to others in their class) and all the stuff needed to make those alphas as effective as possible; and the clan side just has a lot more mechs that can do that atm.

[SeventhSL]

MCII and KDK-3 would disagree with your Omni theory.

You could give IS Omni Mechs but they would be terrible because Omni Mechs only work due to light weight, low slot Clan tech. The real balance issue is the lack of a couple of core game mechanics. Our current mechanics favour high alpha, poke, NASCAR play styles which is the strength of Clan Mechs. There are no trade offs which give slower and lower alpha Mechs an advantage so IS gets the short end on the stick.

Most stuff that IS players complain about, like XL, is because they essentially want cloned Clan tech to beat Clan at their own game. What they really need is a couple of game mechanics, like accuracy, that give smaller engines and alphas an actual game advantage they can use against fast, high alpha mechs.

[davoodoo]

SeventhSL, on 05 November 2017 - 06:05 AM, said:

Our current mechanics favour high alpha, poke, NASCAR play styles which is the strength of Clan Mechs.

Battletech favors battletech playstyle, got ya...

battletech mechs are all about alphas.

Edited by davoodoo, 05 November 2017 - 06:07 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

PGI has never added a hardpoint to an IS mech post launch AFAIK. They have done it multiple times via omnitech for Clans. Granted, some of these new hardpoints for clans are zero value added while other times they are power creep.

Here are my top 20 mechs with anything sub 50 games played omitted.



Granted, balance changes have come along. DRG-1N has no more 50% cooldown. Night Gyr drives like a cement truck now. Dire Wolf handling is worse than a cement truck.

Even if I could play enough to take a new snapshot, pretty sure it would still be mostly Clans.

Clans OP

Edit: I dont have a MKII hero, that would probably be up there in top 5 easily. My Dual Heavy Gauss mauler would make it if I played it more, perhaps.

*hbk IIC is the IIC-A


I suggest taking away half the ST blowout heat penalty from IS lite fusion(since it is half the weight savings). Whats the worst thing that could happen? IS mechs in MWOWC? lel

Edited by Kin3ticX, 05 November 2017 - 06:35 AM.

[JC Daxion]

El Bandito, on 05 November 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

What makes you think that ST death proof 2 slot per ST CXL, and 2 slot Clan DHS (which allows Clan mechs to mount 1/3 more external DHS compared to IS mechs), and 7 slot Endo/Ferro, are not contributing to the higher alpha of Clanners? Cause they do. You won't see a 60-70+ alpha Clan heavy as popular choice, if it didn't have the Clan tech enabling it to mount 24+ DHS on it. Not to mention Clan weapons costing less weight and slots in general.

Well because that stuff can be balanced in it's own way between the factions.. That is the greater weapon balance thing as a whole.

But yes, the ablitly to pack those weapons is part of it, and how they are designed, but i don't think its the great over all aspect that applies to the whole "Meta" shifts that really are what balance is all about you know?


Also why i think ED needs to come back, but as i said, that is not really the main issue of the thread persay, more an identifier to what is the root cause.

[El Bandito]

JC Daxion, on 05 November 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Well because that stuff can be balanced in it's own way between the factions.. That is the greater weapon balance thing as a whole.

IMO, cross faction weapon balance cannot be achieved, unless the base tech is balanced first. You can't just balance IS MPL against CMPL and call it a day, cause tech difference will still ensure that CMPL boat will stay superior to that of IS MPL boat, which means even the best IS mech will still be chained to quirks--quirks that can be so easily taken away.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 November 2017 - 07:03 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

Most omni mechs are actually garbage. Off the top of my head :

Lights :

Mist Lynx : Only one decent build, and that requires boating MGs in easily shot off arms
Artic cheetah : Only one decent build, and that requires boating MGs in easily shot off arms
Kitfox - 97 KPH light with bad hitboxes LOL
Adder - 97 KPH light with bad hitboxes LOL
Cougar - 81 KPH light with bad hitboxes LOL

Mediums :

Viper : No pod space, bad hit boxes
Artic Wolf : Inferior to the battlemech version in almost every way, bad hitboxes
Ice Ferret : No pod space
Shadow Cat : No hardpoints, bad hitboxes, low pod space
Huntsman : Mediocre
Stormcrow : Mediocre
Nova : low slung weapon arms, no pod space, horribly bad hitboxes, huge arms where most of the weapons are

Heavies :

Mad Dog : Bad hitboxes, low slung weapon arms, relies on missiles, max missile hardpoints if you want armor quirks is 3
Ebon Jaguar : Bad hitboxes, only good if you boat mid-long range laser vomit
Hellbringer : Low pod space, only good if you boat mid-long range laser vomit
Summoner : No pod space, only niche use is for ER PPC poptarts in comp matches
Nova Cat : Bad hitboxes, low slung weapon arms, VERY easy to shoot off arms
Night Gyr : Agility of an assault, locked JJs are more or less useless, niche builds for hot maps
Linebacker : No pod space, huge torsos. The side torsos are just massive targets...I love popping them in my cataphract.
Timberwolf : EBJ does pretty much every build better for 10 tons less.

Assaults :

Gargoyle : No pod space
Warhawk : Low slung weapon arms, bad hit boxes, locked equipment basically means theres maybe 2 useful builds for it
Executioner : No pod space
Dire Wolf : Bad hit boxes, inferior to the Annihilator/Kodiak/KGC in every way

Thats like 2 lights that are decent with one build, two mediums that are mediocre and two heavies that are decent with one build. Not counting battlemechs.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 November 2017 - 03:09 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Bud Crue, on 05 November 2017 - 06:04 AM, said:

e.g. Gauss/PPC "meta" was only the "meta" because of a few mechs. All of them were clan.

Oh you sweet summer child. You have no idea about the days of glory, when jumpjets made you fly and Cataphract 3Ds, Highlanders and Dragon Slayers dominated the battlefields.

[El Bandito]

Jun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

Most omni mechs are actually garbage. Off the top of my head :

Lights :

Mist Lynx : Only one decent build, and that requires boating MGs in easily shot off arms
Artic cheetah : Only one decent build, and that requires boating MGs in easily shot off arms
Kitfox - 97 KPH light with bad hitboxes LOL
Adder - 97 KPH light with bad hitboxes LOL
Cougar - 81 KPH light with bad hitboxes LOL

Mediums :

Viper : No pod space, bad hit boxes
Artic Wolf : Inferior to the battlemech version in almost every way, bad hitboxes
Ice Ferret : No pod space
Shadow Cat : No hardpoints, bad hitboxes, low pod space
Huntsman : Mediocre
Stormcrow : Mediocre

Heavies :

Mad Dog : Bad hitboxes, low slung weapon arms, relies on missiles, max missile hardpoints if you want armor quirks is 3
Ebon Jaguar : Bad hitboxes, only good if you boat mid-long range laser vomit
Hellbringer : Low pod space, only good if you boat mid-long range laser vomit
Summoner : No pod space, only niche use is for ER PPC poptarts in comp matches
Nova Cat : Bad hitboxes, low slung weapon arms, VERY easy to shoot off arms
Night Gyr : Agility of an assault, locked JJs are more or less useless, niche builds for hot maps

Assaults :

Gargoyle : No pod space
Warhawk : Low slung weapon arms, bad hit boxes, locked equipment basically means theres maybe 2 useful builds for it
Executioner : No pod space
Dire Wolf : Bad hit boxes, inferior to the Annihilator/Kodiak/KGC in every way

Thats like 2 lights that are decent with one build, two mediums that are mediocre and two heavies that are decent with one build. Not counting battlemechs.

Hahaha, if I use your way of describing mechs, then every single IS mech will be considered mediocre, or plain bad.

[Y E O N N E]

JC Daxion, on 05 November 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

But yes, the ablitly to pack those weapons is part of it, and how they are designed, but i don't think its the great over all aspect that applies to the whole "Meta" shifts that really are what balance is all about you know?

It takes 8 energy hardpoints for the IS to get near a Clan alpha achieved with only six energy hardpoints.

The best extreme range Clan Assault uses 5 lasers. The best mid-range Clan assault uses six lasers and two ballistics, runner up four and two. The best close-range Clan Assault uses two ballistics and four missiles.

It's not just the quantity of guns, it's the quality of those guns and the supporting infrastructure.

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:

Oh you sweet summer child. You have no idea about the days of glory, when jumpjets made you fly and Cataphract 3Ds, Highlanders and Dragon Slayers dominated the battlefields.

And there were no Clan 'Mechs at all in the game. Those IS 'Mechs were obsoleted instantly when the Clan patch hit the servers and they've been obsolete ever since.

Comparing apples and uranium ore, friendo.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

Most omni mechs are actually garbage. Off the top of my head :

So, in your eyes, the only good OmniMechs are;

Nova, Linebacker & Timber Wolf?

That's certainly an interesting PoV...

[Angel of Annihilation]

JC Daxion, on 05 November 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

I've been giving this lots of thought as of late and IMO it's not the Clan vrs IS XL engines or the heat sinks that cause most of the issues..

It's Clan alpha's due to massive hard point counts, aka Alpha warrior online. (IMO ED needs to make a come back which i've been working on a post about but not ready yet but i digress)


I think the major cause or the clan and IS balance are more simple than equipment, I really think it's the whole OMNI mech system that is what's leading the charge.

One thing i've noticed about the Meta/Top mechs, and why they are typically clan mechs for the most part is because of the omni system. I think back about all the top mechs over time and how often the meta swapped, yet many of those mechs just swap to the new meta, by swapping out omni pods. missiles the new meta, well swap some pods, Ballistics are in favor, swap pods, energy is back, well boat up lasers.. and the cycle repeats.

the IS just have less options over all when it comes to this, and you need to buy a new mech, and kit it out, but often have sub par options in comparison. clans just swap around parts.


So basically access to more hard points and the ability to swap them when the meta changes leads to much of the balance issues. Yes i realize there are no fixes in this thread, but i think identifying the real problem is a good start.

Thoughts?

I agree with the Energy Draw. I too think there is just too much alpha-warrior online. It is just way to easy to put all your weapons on one mouse button and click your way to victory. The game would be much better if you were forced to cycle through groups of weapons around 30 damage each group. TTK would dramatic go up and the game would require a bit more skill than currently. Also the builds would tend to fall more into line with traditional Battletech, mixed weapons builds rather than boating all one type of weapon to get that one click alpha build going. Hell maybe they would even revert the horrid medium laser rebalancing they did last patch.

[Tarl Cabot]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:

Oh you sweet summer child. You have no idea about the days of glory, when jumpjets made you fly and Cataphract 3Ds, Highlanders and Dragon Slayers dominated the battlefields.

And those FLPPD was 35pts of damage 1*GR + 2*ERPPC/PPC..... HAHAHAHA.. and no quirks...yes.. days of glory while Atlas pilots with their brawling setup cried because they were being decimated while coming through open areas instead of using terrain... HAHAHA.

Where is NKVA!!??

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 05 November 2017 - 07:04 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 November 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

And there were no Clan 'Mechs at all in the game. Those IS 'Mechs were obsoleted instantly when the Clan patch hit the servers and they've been obsolete ever since.

Comparing apples and uranium ore, friendo.

I fail to see how you angst for clans invalidates the fact that ppc+gauss meta were alive and kicking since the beginning of times.