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The Real Reason Why Clans And Is Are Not Balanced


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#121 Jun Watarase

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 03:44 PM

View PostJay Leon Hart, on 05 November 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

I don't know, this Season I have only been using HLLs & ERMLs outside of Scouting (with the exception of the extra LMGs on my Nova). My Avg MS, K/D & W/L have never been so high (except, oddly, for my first matches in the Uziel Posted Image ).

The cooldown nerf on Mediums was felt on cooler 'mechs, but matched with HLLs it doesn't matter anyway. Torso twisting is great, if you can do it in time, but that extra 0.45s vs an IS (ER)LL isn't all that bad now targets twist slower, plus it's only .20s longer then the ERMLs. I still have trouble vs Lights, but most of my Assault 'mechs do these days Posted Image


Against pulse, its roughly an extra second of time. And IS have plenty of PPFLD options, and SRMs are still FLD. Ive never once thought that clan mechs were difficult to deal with in QP with my IS mechs...I mean crabs, bushwackers, assassins, annihilators, etc, just face tank so much damage. But clan mechs are so easy to pop. Even my non-meta bushwacker with 4x MPL/2x SRM-6s with artemis can do massive damage to a clan heavy at short range.

#122 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 03:48 PM

View PostJun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

The thing is regardless of which build the warhammer goes with, the warhammer easily wins if it can negate the range advantage and use the shield arms to tank damage. If you are trading shots at mid-long range, the EBJ wins because it can minimize its weaknesses by reversing behind a rock quickly. If the warhammer is up close, the warhammer can easily take out a side torso or simply aim for the nose and hit the CT from the side, which the EBJ cannot do because of shield arms.

Not quite the same, but I had 2 consecutive matches vs the same WHM AC40 user the other day, both times I was in my SNV-1 with 2x HLL, 6x ERML.

The first time, I managed to strip all armour from an ST in 1 shot, then just waited for them to peak and blew out their engine. Someone else got the kill, but I crippled them in 2 volleys.

Next drop, I spy them across the map and, filled with undeserved confidence, make a beeline for them. First volley strips their ST again, but I'm all impatient and want the kill, so I don't wait for them to twist back. I dump my next 3 volleys into their fresh torso & arm. End result, they CT core me, like the idiot I was Posted Image If I had just been patient and kept my distance, I could have just killed them and carried on with the match.

Not really sure where I was going with that...

#123 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 03:53 PM

View PostJun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:


I left out some, thanks for reminding me.

I stated that the EBJ/Hellbringer was good if used with one particular build. The problem is, they are only good with that particular build, which is mid-long ranged laser vomit. Theres no versatility, which is a balance issue (but good luck convincing PGI of that). IS mechs in comparison have no locked equipment, so you can make a lot of builds work. The warhammer is really versatile and tanky for example. You can brawl with it, you have high torso mounted hardpoints, you have variants with decent amount of all hardpoints.

Whereas something like the HBR-F is just too badly gimped from the start because nothing you can do can increase the pod space to use 2x ballistics. The entire HBR chassis as a whole is just geared towards laser vomit due to having ample space for DHS, unfortunately this means putting anything other than lasers on it is a horrible idea. Unfortunately the quirks that HBRs have only encourage laser vomit, because they arent enough to make up for the disadvantages of NOT running laser vomit.

But in case you are wondering :

Nova : low slung weapon arms, no pod space, horribly bad hitboxes, huge arms where most of the weapons are
Linebacker : No pod space, huge torsos. The side torsos are just massive targets...I love popping them in my cataphract.
Timberwolf : EBJ does pretty much every build better for 10 tons less.

When people say that clan mechs are superior, they always mean for mid-long ranged laser vomit, but they usaully fail to mention that limitation. And they never mean the ones with gimped pod space or engines, which actually make up a sizable portion of the list.


LBK- SRMs and some laser options. Very high mounts. Terribly quick, which makes up for a lot. Moderately tanky.

If you can't beat a Phract in a LBK then you're bad. At any range, brawling, mid or long. The only thing a Phract can do better than an LBK is.... poptart. You say the LBKs ST are big and then compare it to a Phract.

The Nova is still one of the strongest brawling mediums in the game. If you can't figure out what to do with 12 energy hardpoints to carve up just about anything like a turkey, nothing can help you. 12x ERMSL are still excellent. It's just that the HBK IIC *is even better*.

TBR is better than EBJ... except for the insane mobility nerfs it had to get. The TBR getting huge mobility nerfs is literally the only reason you see non-TBR heavies because prior to that... all you saw was TBR for heavies unless someone had to get the 10 tons per mech (for drop decks) and so went for the squishier, JJ-less EBJ.

What you're missing is that the mechs you listed *are still superior to their IS alternatives in almost every single role*.... just that there's other Clan mechs that are even better. In many weight classes you'll go through 2 or 3 Clan mechs in a role before you get down to an IS one.

Assassin being about the only real exception.

#124 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 03:54 PM

View PostJun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Against pulse, its roughly an extra second of time. And IS have plenty of PPFLD options, and SRMs are still FLD. Ive never once thought that clan mechs were difficult to deal with in QP with my IS mechs...I mean crabs, bushwackers, assassins, annihilators, etc, just face tank so much damage. But clan mechs are so easy to pop. Even my non-meta bushwacker with 4x MPL/2x SRM-6s with artemis can do massive damage to a clan heavy at short range.

Against MPLs? Sure, but you have almost twice their range. LPLs? They're poor now, (ER)LLs are better.

I can have some decent fun in my IS 'mechs and that extra armour/structure lets me survive an extra hit, but I have Clan 'mechs that can just walk through other 'mechs, so they don't even get shot in the first place.

#125 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 03:56 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 05 November 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:


HBK-4P, Sparky, and BJ-1X for vomit.

BJ-3 and VND-1AA/1R for poptarting. I suppose you could use the SHD-2K, but I find that 'Mech to be way too stiff and seriously dislike driving it, even after trying to tweak its mobility in the skill tree. Could just be me.

ASN-21/23, GRF-3M/2N, SHD-2D2, CN9-AH, BSW-P1 for brawl.

BSW-X1 and SHD-2H for dakka. Honorable mentions for BJ-1 and BJ-1DC.

Actually, I want to take a moment and point out that the BJ-1DC is probably being underrated. It still has prodigious firepower quirks in the form of range for both ballistics and energy, energy duration, and ballistics heat+cooldown quirks. It's essentially a miniature RFL-3N and, where the latter is nasty with two UAC/5 and six ML, the BJ-1DC is similarly nasty with a UAC/10 and six ML. Squishy, but dangerous. It will do mid-range and long-range builds well, either pure lasers or mixed lasers and ballistics.



Probably. The cMPL in particular are pretty gross at the moment.


Missing the 5 ERLL CRB-27B, hehe

#126 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 04:06 PM

View PostJun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:


Against pulse, its roughly an extra second of time. And IS have plenty of PPFLD options, and SRMs are still FLD. Ive never once thought that clan mechs were difficult to deal with in QP with my IS mechs...I mean crabs, bushwackers, assassins, annihilators, etc, just face tank so much damage. But clan mechs are so easy to pop. Even my non-meta bushwacker with 4x MPL/2x SRM-6s with artemis can do massive damage to a clan heavy at short range.


It's in your head. Completely in your head.

All those mechs you're talking about get *at best* 7-14 points of extra health on ST/CT. At best. Many don't even get that on torsos, just arms. Your Clan mechs, if made correct, are doing 20+ more damage with every trigger pull, are faster and cool more quickly and at longer range. Unless you are playing poorly you absolutely should *always* get a hit in on your IS enemies before they're even in range, wiping out that health advantage before any real fighting starts. Even if that opportunity doesn't come up you should be using cover to keep from getting shot by multiple enemies at once, ensuring your higher damage/shot lets you dominate your enemy.

If you're not beating IS mechs pretty consistently while in Clan mechs it's a user error problem. All the best people in the game, when playing each other, can attest to this. This is the part that's a struggle to understand why you're struggling with.

Players who can consistently, 10 matches out of 10, beat you in whatever mech you want to take - you take a mech, they take an identical mech, they will beat you. Pretty much every match. That's not a criticism - that's the nature of human skill curve. They would all mop the floor with me too, match after match. People who can literally demonstratively show that they understand how to play the game better than you or me can also clearly identify exactly why one thing is better than another, your position is that... they don't understand how the game works and you do?

This isn't about stat shaming or anything like that. There's no shame in stats anyway. However this isn't anything being seriously debated. It's like talking about germ theory of disease or theory of relativity. Nobody who understands the subjects is arguing the core ideas of either, at all. If someone else who demonstratively doesn't understand the topics as well shows up and says they're wrong, because (insert anecdotal experience here) that's not even an argument.

Personally my best performing heavy mechs are IS mechs. Marauders and Roughnecks. By a good stretch. However this is a byproduct of how I play and what I play and the environments I play in. While there are some narrow contexts in which some of these IS mechs can out-perform their Clan equivalent that's a narrow niche situation that exists in spite of their overall inferior performance. Without question Clan mechs do all those same jobs better. I just really like those mechs and I like to play them so that significantly impacts the anecdotal experience.

However the only argument to be had about IS/Clan balance is "why do so many people not really understand why and how it's imbalanced and why, when presented with the math to prove it, so actively refuse to accept the facts being presented to them."

#127 Mcgral18

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 04:17 PM

View PostJun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:


Heavy lasers are easily countered by torso twisting to spread damage and then beating the helpless clan mech senseless while it desperately waits for them to cycle.

Literally the only way you can possibly have issues with them is if you face tank them so all the damage goes to one location and let the clan mech cool down behind a rock so he can alpha you several more times.



It's not like Heavy Lasers have among the highest Dam/tick available in the game...along with SO MUCH MORE outright damage available


Mechs turn at a fixed rate, where your magical reaction time doesn't matter, because the mech turns slower than that, and slower than the beam finishes.
Good luck out twisting a HLL ERML Clam boat
If there's Gauss thrown in there? RIP Sphere



You've gone full Clam Apologist lately
Why is that? It's very sad.

#128 Rovertoo

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 04:40 PM

How about we just lower clan base heat cap? Something like 75% of IS. Thatll stop a good portion of high-alpha mechs.

#129 Jackal Noble

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 04:52 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 05 November 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:



It's not like Heavy Lasers have among the highest Dam/tick available in the game...along with SO MUCH MORE outright damage available


Mechs turn at a fixed rate, where your magical reaction time doesn't matter, because the mech turns slower than that, and slower than the beam finishes.
Good luck out twisting a HLL ERML Clam boat
If there's Gauss thrown in there? RIP Sphere



You've gone full Clam Apologist lately
Why is that? It's very sad.


Really? you can't out twist a HLL stare machine? that is sad.

#130 Bud Crue

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 04:53 PM

Damn, but this community is entertaining.
Great thread.

Edited by Bud Crue, 05 November 2017 - 04:53 PM.


#131 Mcgral18

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 04:54 PM

View PostJackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:


Really? you can't out twist a HLL stare machine? that is sad.


Another Clam Apologist


Would you care to twist my Mega LOLpha?
I'd like to see you try, while competing in an inferior Spheroid chassis, as Jun says one can do.


kek, is how I respond

#132 ApolloKaras

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 05:27 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 05 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:


Another Clam Apologist


Would you care to twist my Mega LOLpha?
I'd like to see you try, while competing in an inferior Spheroid chassis, as Jun says one can do.


kek, is how I respond


Are you selling tickets to this 1v1? I want a spot :)

#133 Clownwarlord

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 05:32 PM

WRONG!!! All wrong ... and you would know this if you actually knew the development of the game. The reason why the game isn't balanced is rather simple. PGI didn't want it to be balanced they wanted flavors or uniqueness between IS and Clan and even further between tonnage and even farther than that with differences in mech chassis.

Hard to balance a game when you want everything to be different because if it all would be balance then it would all have to be the same, causing the game to be horribly boring.

#134 Mcgral18

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 05:35 PM

View PostClownwarlord, on 05 November 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

Hard to balance a game when you want everything to be different because if it all would be balance then it would all have to be the same, causing the game to be horribly boring.



No, not that hard

The isLPL and cLPL were fairly well balanced, but completely different


Then PGI went and made both irrelevant...


There's a certain constant here whenever balance is involved...and it isn't Clams

#135 Kin3ticX

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 06:00 PM

View PostClownwarlord, on 05 November 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

WRONG!!! All wrong ... and you would know this if you actually knew the development of the game. The reason why the game isn't balanced is rather simple. PGI didn't want it to be balanced they wanted flavors or uniqueness between IS and Clan and even further between tonnage and even farther than that with differences in mech chassis.

Hard to balance a game when you want everything to be different because if it all would be balance then it would all have to be the same, causing the game to be horribly boring.


If the imbalance is intentional then PGI has to leave weaknesses for us to discover. A strong hero or strong mech must have some counter to be discovered by somebody and then copied.

Look at MWOWC. Almost all Clan mechs. If anyone sits around discovering **** its those guys, and they use almost all clam mechs.

This isnt designed imbalance, its just imbalance, the bad kind.

#136 Deathlike

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 06:41 PM

View PostKin3ticX, on 05 November 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:


If the imbalance is intentional then PGI has to leave weaknesses for us to discover. A strong hero or strong mech must have some counter to be discovered by somebody and then copied.

Look at MWOWC. Almost all Clan mechs. If anyone sits around discovering **** its those guys, and they use almost all clam mechs.

This isnt designed imbalance, its just imbalance, the bad kind.


The thing is for those sailing the brown sea is that "there are some a lot of legit IS mechs that are OP/worthy of being fielded by comp players" and "why haven't they tried Vindicators and Urbies and *insert some IS mech here*" thinking going on, when the reality is the opposite.

It's really about arguing with people that the sky is not blue. I mean... let's just argue that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4. It'll be good for everyone's blood pressure.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 November 2017 - 06:42 PM.


#137 Scout Derek

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 06:58 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 05 November 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:



No, not that hard

The isLPL and cLPL were fairly well balanced, but completely different


Then PGI went and made both irrelevant...


There's a certain constant here whenever balance is involved...and it isn't Clams


Hmm oh whatever could it be??? Posted Image

View PostDeathlike, on 05 November 2017 - 06:41 PM, said:


The thing is for those sailing the brown sea is that "there are some a lot of legit IS mechs that are OP/worthy of being fielded by comp players" and "why haven't they tried Vindicators and Urbies and *insert some IS mech here*" thinking going on, when the reality is the opposite.

It's really about arguing with people that the sky is not blue. I mean... let's just argue that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4. It'll be good for everyone's blood pressure.


You just made my blood pressure skyrocket.

Edited by Scout Derek, 05 November 2017 - 06:59 PM.


#138 Jackal Noble

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 08:04 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 05 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:


Another Clam Apologist


Would you care to twist my Mega LOLpha?
I'd like to see you try, while competing in an inferior Spheroid chassis, as Jun says one can do.


kek, is how I respond


Sure bud. Try making sense instead of trying to seem like whatever it is that your shooting (no pun) for.

"another clam apologist" duh.

Mega LOLpha. duh

#139 Jackal Noble

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 08:08 PM

Try killing me in my laser warhammer in your Hellbringer (cause you adore your ECM, don't you).
You get to shoot once, I'll mosy on up and core you out while your weapons cooldown. no prob.

#140 FupDup

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 08:10 PM

View PostJackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

Try killing me in my laser warhammer in your Hellbringer (cause you adore your ECM, don't you).
You get to shoot once, I'll mosy on up and core you out while your weapons cooldown. no prob.

MY DAD CAN BEAT UP YOUR DAD!





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