81 replies to this topic

[CK16]

Before the whole RNG kills skill ect....Short answer is no....Every first person shooter in existence (that is worth anything) has an aiming reticle. Most have it so if you are moving at full speed your accuracy is crap along with some will not even allowing you to fire while sprinting. Perfect aim required slow movement and a little time to aim/zoom in.

So imo, to counter these alpha vomits ect a good system would be a targeting reticle, this being your weapons won't be as pinpoint unless you R key the target and hold for a short period to get its signature locked in then you get very close to your current pin point aim at the distance the target is at (this could also help with those weird convergence issues we have leading targets at close range while the background is way further out) as a lock would set your convergence point to the distance of your locked target. Have the weapons you have set to a uniform convergence for their type, ER LL set to a further point then say an ER Small ect. Base off optimal range, of if no possible have set distance convergence set by used (simular to how ARMA has you set your ranges to compensate for drop (50m,100m, 150m 200m, ect ect.)

To counter a huge lockon reticle as we currently have for missiles add a golden ring that would be on the outside of the current red circle, this would indicate targeting system lock ect.

Also this adds a buff for targeting computers to aquire lock faster and even maintain lock, and even better aim possibly on the move if they have speed affect your reticle. This is not a Cone of fire as CoF is based of recoil that we don't really have in game, and those weapons that are automatic have a built in CoF already.

Maybe even have this not require hitting the R key, MW4 had it so you could lock onto targets with out needing to have them be your target info. Aka just holding your reticle over a target would get you locks.

TL:DR Aiming/target reticle would help game play while not removing skill factors (in some cases adding more skill factor to compensate now and know positioning). No this is not an aim assist or auto tracking targets ect....

Sorry for edits, phone posting sucks sometimes

Edited by CK16, 06 November 2017 - 07:37 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

This is delayed convergence and, while I am fine with the idea, PGI abandoned it because it messed with hit-reg.

[CK16]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 November 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

This is delayed convergence and, while I am fine with the idea, PGI abandoned it because it messed with hit-reg.

Sure, just be nice to have it possibly tied to a lock system maybe vs where your cursor happens to be. Have it be player adjustable maybe so if someone insist on poke alphaing laser vomit or ppc/gauss jumping they would have to know the range first to set their system to then come out and let loose, the skilled players would be good at this and know how to use it, bads be well bad still. Take away easy mode aiming I would be interested in some of the results for sure.

[Khobai]

no thanks.

id rather see large lasers and medium lasers linked for ghost heat than have my weapons not shoot where I aim.

and if you want to penalize people for not having sensor locks, a straight 30%-50% damage penalty when firing at targets beyond optimum range without a lock is much easier to code, and largely accomplishes the same thing without adding any undesirable RNG to the game.

Quote

Take away easy mode aiming I would be interested in some of the results for sure.

the result is that people would quit because the game would be [even more] terrible. nobody else wants guns that dont shoot where they aim.

Edited by Khobai, 06 November 2017 - 08:24 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

CK16, on 06 November 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

Before the whole RNG kills skill ect....Short answer is no....Every first person shooter in existence (that is worth anything) has an aiming reticle. Most have it so if you are moving at full speed your accuracy is crap along with some will not even allowing you to fire while sprinting. Perfect aim required slow movement and a little time to aim/zoom in.

So imo, to counter these alpha vomits ect a good system would be a targeting reticle, this being your weapons won't be as pinpoint unless you R key the target and hold for a short period to get its signature locked in then you get very close to your current pin point aim at the distance the target is at (this could also help with those weird convergence issues we have leading targets at close range while the background is way further out) as a lock would set your convergence point to the distance of your locked target. Have the weapons you have set to a uniform convergence for their type, ER LL set to a further point then say an ER Small ect. Base off optimal range, of if no possible have set distance convergence set by used (simular to how ARMA has you set your ranges to compensate for drop (50m,100m, 150m 200m, ect ect.)

To counter a huge lockon reticle as we currently have for missiles add a golden ring that would be on the outside of the current red circle, this would indicate targeting system lock ect.

Also this adds a buff for targeting computers to aquire lock faster and even maintain lock, and even better aim possibly on the move if they have speed affect your reticle. This is not a Cone of fire as CoF is based of recoil that we don't really have in game, and those weapons that are automatic have a built in CoF already.

Maybe even have this not require hitting the R key, MW4 had it so you could lock onto targets with out needing to have them be your target info. Aka just holding your reticle over a target would get you locks.

TL:DR Aiming/target reticle would help game play while not removing skill factors (in some cases adding more skill factor to compensate now and know positioning). No this is not an aim assist or auto tracking targets ect....

Sorry for edits, phone posting sucks sometimes

What you're looking for is "Cone of Fire" or "Blooming Reticle" not "just reticle" as your post suggests.

I'm all for a Cone of Fire/Blooming Reticle system, because yes, the accuracy level of weapons in this game is too damned high, and a little bit more variation in firing locations would be well appreciated.

will it peve off the "leet" players that think they have skill because they can PPFLD damage headshots at 500m+ in the current system? Sure it will. BUT in the long run, it would help lower TTK, and would bring the game back to feeling more like battletech, and less like a twitchy shooter.

[CK16]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 06 November 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

What you're looking for is "Cone of Fire" or "Blooming Reticle" not "just reticle" as your post suggests.

I'm all for a Cone of Fire/Blooming Reticle system, because yes, the accuracy level of weapons in this game is too damned high, and a little bit more variation in firing locations would be well appreciated.

will it peve off the "leet" players that think they have skill because they can PPFLD damage headshots at 500m+ in the current system? Sure it will. BUT in the long run, it would help lower TTK, and would bring the game back to feeling more like battletech, and less like a twitchy shooter.

Even the twichyist shooters have reticle bloom, no game that I can think of has it this pinpoint specially for multi weapons platforms

[CK16]

Khobai, on 06 November 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

no thanks.

the result is that people would quit because the game would be [even more] terrible. nobody else wants guns that dont shoot where they aim.

You mean like every other FPS and or like World of tanks? Sorry nope, you running full speed in let's take Call of Duty you won't have perfect aim while running, you still need to slow down/stop to aim/zoom in to take accurate shots. Part of life, would make this game.better. Sorry lazy mode isn't good to have, adding some viable depth is much welcome honestly....

[Khobai]

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You mean like every other FPS and or like World of tanks?

Its not at all the same thing. You dont have multiple weapons that fire simultaneously in other FPS games or world of tanks. You have one incredibly lethal weapon in those games. Not multiple weaker weapons that need to converge in order to do any kindve threatening damage. Different games are different.

Youre trying to compare games that arnt even remotely like MWO as evidence that RNG is somehow okay... thats a strawman argument at best.

Convergence is a part of mechwarrior. Every mechwarrior game has had convergence. And other mechwarrior games dealt with convergence in different ways... like sized hardpoints, triple armor/structure, significantly reduced damage on lasers, etc... but none of them resorted to something as asinine as RNG aiming.

There are much simpler solutions to counter convergence that dont require altering fundamental gameplay elements of the franchise. If you want CoD with mechs, that game exists, go play hawken.

Edited by Khobai, 06 November 2017 - 08:47 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

CK16, on 06 November 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Even the twichyist shooters have reticle bloom, no game that I can think of has it this pinpoint specially for multi weapons platforms

Just for the sake of argument, Quake Champions and Unreal Tournament have no bloom.

[CK16]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 November 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Just for the sake of argument, Quake Champions and Unreal Tournament have no bloom.

Fair enough but I mean Cod and BF both huge FPS franchises with thriving (for the most part) online communities have that bit of RNG and those don't have people freaking out over possibility of missed shots. WoT is pretty successful and that RNG is far worse usually. But I wouldn't want WoT RNG either as that can be extremely frustrating... ect but having such Pin point aim in a game.like this does hurt it despite what "skill" people claim to have with laying a dot on target ect.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 06 November 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

and if you want to penalize people for not having sensor locks, a straight 30%-50% damage penalty when firing at targets beyond optimum range without a lock is much easier to code, and largely accomplishes the same thing without adding any undesirable RNG to the game.

One could also tie crit chances with acquired locks.

[Natred]

Having trouble hitting your target so you feel other people who can hit their target need to be nerfed. Lol

[Khobai]

Quote

Fair enough but I mean Cod and BF both huge FPS franchises with thriving (for the most part) online communities have that bit of RNG and those don't have people freaking out over possibility of missed shots

yes but what youre not understanding is that people play MWO instead of CoD specifically because its not like CoD.

[Y E O N N E]

CK16, on 06 November 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Fair enough but I mean Cod and BF both huge FPS franchises with thriving (for the most part) online communities have that bit of RNG and those don't have people freaking out over possibility of missed shots. WoT is pretty successful and that RNG is far worse usually. But I wouldn't want WoT RNG either as that can be extremely frustrating... ect but having such Pin point aim in a game.like this does hurt it despite what "skill" people claim to have with laying a dot on target ect.

Quake and UT are the two FPS games considered to have the highest skill ceiling in the genre because they are fast, precise, and devoid of RNG. They also aren't very popular anymore for the same reasons; they are hard to play well. CoD and BF are much easier games to pick up and play. Other players are easy to kill with a few shots, making precision less important than initiative. And, in both cases, the objective scores higher than kills, too.

It is worth pointing out that spread in these games isn't there to stop you from placing damage, it is there to slow down the rate of placement and can be circumvented by getting closer, getting good at adjusting , or timing your trigger pulls. Lock-based convergence in MWO would not be so defeatable.

[Curccu]

CK16, on 06 November 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Even the twichyist shooters have reticle bloom, no game that I can think of has it this pinpoint specially for multi weapons platforms

You mean games like Quakes and Unreal Tournaments ?

[Trissila]

See, people keep bringing up CoF in other FPS games without noting several key factors:

1) Those games have much faster movement than MWO, including near-instantaneous changes in direction
2) CoF systems are almost always pinpoint or near-pinpoint, not just on the first shot but on the first SEVERAL shots, in games where three or four bullets kills you and almost every weapon is fully-automatic.
3) Even when blooming, most CoF systems do not actually spread your fire enough to cause an appreciable miss rate except for barely-on-target shots to begin with, extreme engagement ranges, or after holding the trigger for MUCH longer than the game's actual TTK.

Take Battlefield 4, for instance. The Famas, under normal game rules, kills you in 5 body shots out to about 45 meters. It has a base ADS standing spread of 0.25 degrees, with a spread increase of 0.13 degrees per shot. By the time you fire the fifth, fatal bullet, the spread has increased to 0.77 degrees. From engagement to kill, the spread on that gun is less than three quarters of one degree from center. Unless you have some kind of muscular disorder in your mouse-hand, all five bullets are hitting the target.

Oh, and by the by, the TTK for this weapon at that range? It's less than a third of a second. Even the dreaded ZOMG HUGE LASER VOMIT ALPHA of 70+ has a burn time of well over a second in this game, and it cannot one-shot you unless you're a light 'mech. So you're looking at, between the 4-second or so total cycle time and another 1-second burn time on the second shot, a minimum of 5+ seconds to kill, which is over FIFTEEN times longer than BF4. So much for CoF being the answer to TTK.

'Mechs moving at full speed are not difficult targets to hit in this game, unless they're a low-end light like a Locust or a Commando. The point of a CoF system is to force a choice between mobility and accuracy, in the context of a game in which your mobility options are enough to provide a good chance of avoiding incoming attacks. MWO is not that kind of game. If they can see you, they will hit you, and no CoF system short of an EGREGIOUSLY skill-eliminating one will change that.

This is all aside from the point that the statement

Quote

Every first person shooter in existence (that is worth anything) has an aiming reticle

Is factually inaccurate. Unreal Tournament did not have a CoF system. Quake III Arena did not have a CoF system. These are two of the greatest FPS games of all time, widely acknowledged by pretty much the entire FPS-playing community that was actually alive when those games were current. Not even their hitscan weapons had random CoF, not even the sniper rifles.

Edited by Trissila, 06 November 2017 - 09:14 AM.

[Asym]

Interesting concept that is in the real world as well: the differences between battle-sight and precision gunnery....
I do see a problem if Solaris becomes a reality... At very close ranges, instant snap shooting is a necessity and locks may not be necessary because a lot of the weapons base are light speed anyway.... This concept could end up being a great idea that just can't be implemented in a way that satisfies those players who want to be up close and personal and the other crew that agrees with the idea....????

[Khobai]

MWO doesnt need reticle bloom or RNG aiming

convergence isnt really a problem anyway until it exceeds 40 damage or so.

MWO just needs to get the huge amount of damage being thrown around in medium and long range alphas under control

huge alphas in short range isnt as much of a problem IMO because short range SHOULD be devastating. Otherwise whats the incentive to close to short range? So like dual AC20 or dual heavy gauss and things like that are probably fine.

we dont need to get rid of convergence completely though. thats overkill.

Quote

I do see a problem if Solaris becomes a reality.

The biggest problem solaris has now is that mechs can just run huge alphas with coolant. And matches will be over in like 30 seconds lol.

Alpha strike potential definitely needs to be limited somehow.

Linking large lasers and medium lasers with ghost heat would be a good start IMO. not allowing consumables would be prudent too.

Edited by Khobai, 06 November 2017 - 09:16 AM.

[El Bandito]

Trissila, on 06 November 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

Is factually inaccurate. Unreal Tournament did not have a CoF system. Quake III Arena did not have a CoF system. These are two of the greatest FPS games of all time, widely acknowledged by pretty much the entire FPS-playing community that was actually alive when those games were current. Not even their hitscan weapons had random CoF, not even the sniper rifles.

TBF, those games are old. Newer titles mostly have some sort of CoF.

[Curccu]

El Bandito, on 06 November 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

TBF, those games are old. Newer titles mostly have some sort of CoF.

Well UT3 is "just" 4 years older than MWO.