59 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

JackalBeast, on 06 November 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

Do you guys not see that there is some correlation with clan mechs being better at putting out more damage albeit less effective at killing? Granted there is a blurred line once the damage gets to a certain threshold.

Yeah I always point this out but it always gets dismissed. Virtually all clan weapons have longer beam durations, longer streams of shells, steams of shells vs solid slugs (in the case of standard ACs), streams of missile, etc, etc that tend to disperse damage rather than concentrate it. So instead of pin point, concentrate damage like the IS gets, you are much more app to hit all over the enemy mech with Clan weapons as you try to kill that enemy. This translates to higher damage but lower kills. Higher damage means a higher match score and potentially more C-bills and XP but only potentially because the longer it takes you to actually kill an enemy the less chance you have of actually surviving the engagement winning the match.

But again it is always dismissed because that fact doesn't agree with their staunch belief that IS mechs such and Clan mechs are OP godlike masters of the battlefield. Sad really.

[Y E O N N E]

It gets dismissed because, while you might smear damage, the damage you did in the same amount of time as that IS laser is greater than the IS amount and you steadfastly, absolutely refuse to acknowledge that time after time. It cannot be refuted. It's not a belief, it's the math. A Battlemaster with a 50 alpha from ERML + LPL gets utterly savaged by an MCII with Gauss, HLL, and ERML because it's 30 instantaneous + 29 damage in the same 0.9 second time span that the BLR lasers burn. So he's traded 50 to one spot on you while taking 59 to one spot and an additional 21 to somewhere else. And you think that's equitable?

Then there's the classic 2x LPL + 6x ERML which is going to deal 47.5 damage in the same time frame that the IS 'Mech deals 47.3 from 3x LL and 4x ERML or 50 from 2xLPL + 6x ML, plus the additional everywhere. All from a greater distance. Or, nu age, It can deal 56 damage from a single burst of 7x MPL in the same range bracket in a span of time where the IS 'Mech has still only dealt 50.

In all cases, with superior cooling on the Clan 'Mech.

FFS dude, get it together.

[davoodoo]

Viktor Drake, on 06 November 2017 - 08:44 PM, said:

Yeah I always point this out but it always gets dismissed. Virtually all clan weapons have longer beam durations, longer streams of shells, steams of shells vs solid slugs (in the case of standard ACs), streams of missile, etc, etc that tend to disperse damage rather than concentrate it. So instead of pin point, concentrate damage like the IS gets, you are much more app to hit all over the enemy mech with Clan weapons as you try to kill that enemy. This translates to higher damage but lower kills. Higher damage means a higher match score and potentially more C-bills and XP but only potentially because the longer it takes you to actually kill an enemy the less chance you have of actually surviving the engagement winning the match.

But again it is always dismissed because that fact doesn't agree with their staunch belief that IS mechs such and Clan mechs are OP godlike masters of the battlefield. Sad really.

Looking at how fw map looks, i say that longer duration means jack.

[Lykaon]

naterist, on 06 November 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

Is is training wheels. Structure and armour let you survive longer to do more damage over time, unless your in an xl (seems odd that upgraded equipment kills your builds niche, but whatever) you dont need to aim as well because short laser duration and pinpoint (or reduced number of bullets) ballistic shots.

Clan has none of the survival quirks (unless your in an OP splatbacker) higher range and damage weapons, with a requirement you hold your target for an extra bit of time. Also higher dps if built well.

Tl;dr is has its bonus's, just none of them are relavent to either the meta, or they have a clan counterpart that does that niche better.

This is odd because I feel like clan mechs are the training wheels.

Generally faster because of the clan XL so easier to correct poor positioning.

More forgiving because of clan XL allowing survival of a lost side torso.

Superior range on many weapon systems also makes for ease of use with less emphesis on positioning granting more opertunity to fire at full effects over short ranged I.S. weapons.

Generally higher weapon payloads due to "death resistant" CXL engine low crit endo and ferro and DHS. This makes it easy to "win" trades that would be outright unfavorable to an I.S. counterpart.

The "better aim" of clan pilots is an outright falsehood when you compare damage dealt during identical durations of time between clan and I.S. lasers.

Example: Inner sphere ER-Medium lasers deal 5 damage in 0.90 seconds While a clan ER-medium deals 7 damage in 1.25 seconds.

That's a 2 point damage increase at a cost of .35 seconds duration.

10% of 5 is .5 a 2 point damage increase is 40% more damage.

40% longer duration than the I.S. weapon would be 1.36 second burn duration. But the Clan laser's duration is not 40% longer it's 1.25 seconds and not 1.36 seconds.

So, in fact the clan laser deals slightly higher damage in .90 seconds than the I.S. weapon does during it's entire burn of .90 seconds.

This means to me that the clan pilots can be a tiny bit worse at aiming and still meet I.S. damage. Oh the clan pilots could always get "lucky" and squeeze out that extra 40% damage per laser as well as having the longer range by 60m optimal.


Who has the training wheels now?

[visionGT4]

Why is it that these rampant clan apologists (its actually blatant denial now) seem to lack the normal male logic based thought process. Its almost like an emotional response suppresses all ability to think logically.

I guess someone didn't wash the vat out properly and they ended up with two matching chromosomes.

[Phoolan Devi]

visionGT4, on 07 November 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

Why is it that these rampant clan apologists (its actually blatant denial now) seem to lack the normal male logic based thought process. Its almost like an emotional response suppresses all ability to think logically.

I guess someone didn't wash the vat out properly and they ended up with two matching chromosomes.

I really do not know why you would put gender in this discussion, but by doing that you accidentally got it 180° wrong. It's women who posses more logical thought and men are more driven by emotions.

[Novakaine]

And. This is why PGI will never get another dime of my considerable disposable income.

[Dogstar]

Well as far as I'm concerned unless someone can demonstrate that IS is better than Clans the fact is settled: Clan mechs are better, there is no 'balance' (and likely never will be), end of discussion.

[qS Sachiel]

visionGT4, on 07 November 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

Why is it that these rampant clan apologists (its actually blatant denial now) seem to lack the normal male logic based thought process. Its almost like an emotional response suppresses all ability to think logically.

I guess someone didn't wash the vat out properly and they ended up with two matching chromosomes.

Given the personal nature of this single person sample, i for one wholly accept the data as both non-biased and sufficient in volume.

Spread the word far and wide that the clan menace is just too strong!

Spoiler

Edited by qS Sachiel, 08 November 2017 - 02:09 AM.

[Brizna]

In regards to the argument that clans do more damage but are less deadly it also worth to note that it is much easier to hold your HLL on a single component when firing at Battlemaster than a Wolfhound which is in coincidence with clan Assaults and Heavies performing better than clan lights in relation to their IS counterparts.

Something that should be taken into ccount hen asigning quirks. Light IS mechs do not need nearly so much quirks as IS Assaults.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 November 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

I see it, when I absolutely gore somebody with a Dire Wolf, and then someone shoots them with an LB10 from 500 m away and they die. Sucks man, wish I did less damage so they wouldn't have just crumbled like that.

In all honesty, no, I don't see Clan mechs being less effective at killing.

There is literally no better mechs for killing than the MC MKII, including the Death Strike, and any Clan Gaussvomit or HLL laservomit. HBR, EBJ. DW too - if you get to the fight in time.

Edited by MischiefSC, 08 November 2017 - 09:04 AM.

[Khobai]

they should just link large laser, medium laser, and gauss for ghost heat

limit it to a combination of 6 of those weapons with no more than 2 large lasers in that combination

so you could still do 2 large + 4 med, 2 gauss + 2 large + 2 medium, 2 gauss + 4 med, etc...

you just wouldnt be able to do crap like 2 gauss + 2 large + 6 med though

[adamts01]

Except for some overquirked IS anomalies, Clans have always been better. I still think they should just have let that be the case and made the fights 12v14, or whatever ended up being balanced.

[MischiefSC]

Viktor Drake, on 06 November 2017 - 08:44 PM, said:

Yeah I always point this out but it always gets dismissed. Virtually all clan weapons have longer beam durations, longer streams of shells, steams of shells vs solid slugs (in the case of standard ACs), streams of missile, etc, etc that tend to disperse damage rather than concentrate it. So instead of pin point, concentrate damage like the IS gets, you are much more app to hit all over the enemy mech with Clan weapons as you try to kill that enemy. This translates to higher damage but lower kills. Higher damage means a higher match score and potentially more C-bills and XP but only potentially because the longer it takes you to actually kill an enemy the less chance you have of actually surviving the engagement winning the match.

But again it is always dismissed because that fact doesn't agree with their staunch belief that IS mechs such and Clan mechs are OP godlike masters of the battlefield. Sad really.

I wish I had a nickle for every time I've posted the literal math showing, exactly, that the Clan mechs are doing more damage even during the same duration as the shorter IS burn and then piling damage on top of it.

I could buy a years premium time.

Your comment is dismissed because it's not correct. There's no opinion or "feeling" involved. If you are in a GHR laservomit and I'm on any major Clan laservomit and we shoot at the same time I'll do about 63 pts to you over the exact same time you do 52 to me. Then I'll dump another 12 points into you. Since your torso twist and reaction speed isn't instantaneous much of that will still be I the same location I'm targetting.

That's not even mentioning that I can do so from 100m further out and because my loadout weighs less, my DHS are 33% smaller, my Endo is 1/2 the size for the same benefit and my CXL gives me 2x the weight savings as your LFE I've got 5 or more DHS more than you. So in addition to smashing you harder over the same burn duration, then burning you extra beyond that, I'll cool my higher heat generation down before you're down to the same point on your bar.

I will do more alpha, more damage/tic, more DPS, better heat management and better sustained DPS and all from more range. There is only one thing IS energy boats do better than Clans -

Lose.

[Dogstar]

MischiefSC, on 08 November 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

I wish I had a nickle for every time I've posted the literal math showing, exactly, that the Clan mechs are doing more damage even during the same duration as the shorter IS burn and then piling damage on top of it.

This, So much this. Clan laser damage does more per tick and the only way to even that out is to increase clan laser duration to where comparable clan and IS lasers do the same damage per tick - and then the clans will still run cooler and have better range.

Frankly the laser balance in MWO is a PoS.

[Jun Watarase]

IS MPL : 6 damage, 0.6s burn duration, 1 damage per 0.1s.

C-MPL : 7 damage, 0.9 burn duration, 0.78 damage per 0.1s.

Of course C-MPLs have more range but IS MPLs are wayyy better at killing fast targets and brawling. There are trade offs. Its just that when you have 12 man firing lines, mid-long range laser vomit dominates.

I think people really underestimate how important the hitbox advantage that IS mechs have is. The huge nose that EBJs, TBRs and MCIIs have are like huge bullseyes and SRM catchers. When I shoot them in the face with my bushwacker, its just amazing how fast they drop because most of the SRMs hit their CT. Every mech that I hate going up against 1v1 is an IS mech...because of how insanely tough they are.

If i bump into a direwolf, i laugh and shoot the nose. If i bump into an Annihilator, I run.

TBH using IS MPLs really feels like cheating. Almost all of my damage goes to where i want and I can start torso twisting before my opponent finishes his long laser burn. Legging light mechs is so easy. Its pretty much like playing the game on easy mode.

[Khobai]

Quote

Except for some overquirked IS anomalies, Clans have always been better. I still think they should just have let that be the case and made the fights 12v14, or whatever ended up being balanced.

12v10 made the most sense because 3 lances vs 2 stars

that wouldve allowed for clan mechs to be about 20% better

which is about what clan mechs were when they were first introduced and IS didnt have any quirks or a tonnage advantage

yeah it still wouldnt be perfectly balanced... but its not like the game is perfectly balanced now anyway.

Edited by Khobai, 08 November 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Jun Watarase, on 08 November 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

IS MPL : 6 damage, 0.6s burn duration, 1 damage per 0.1s.

C-MPL : 7 damage, 0.9 burn duration, 0.78 damage per 0.1s.

Of course C-MPLs have more range but IS MPLs are wayyy better at killing fast targets and brawling. There are trade offs. Its just that when you have 12 man firing lines, mid-long range laser vomit dominates.

I think people really underestimate how important the hitbox advantage that IS mechs have is. The huge nose that EBJs, TBRs and MCIIs have are like huge bullseyes and SRM catchers. When I shoot them in the face with my bushwacker, its just amazing how fast they drop because most of the SRMs hit their CT. Every mech that I hate going up against 1v1 is an IS mech...because of how insanely tough they are.

If i bump into a direwolf, i laugh and shoot the nose. If i bump into an Annihilator, I run.

TBH using IS MPLs really feels like cheating. Almost all of my damage goes to where i want and I can start torso twisting before my opponent finishes his long laser burn. Legging light mechs is so easy. Its pretty much like playing the game on easy mode.

Then you're bad at the game.

65 ton EBJ can run 9 MPLs easily. IS is happy to handle 6 or 7 and it's short range for a tiny fraction of a second shorter burn.

If you bump into the nose of a Dire Wolf that not an utter potato you're going to be happy to get away with 1/2 a mech left. If you nose bump an Anni you're probably below the arc of his torso guns and avoiding 1/2 his firepower.

Since clans are so inferior and every single comp player in MWO and every single top performing unit in comp and FW all clearly just don't understand how the game is played why don't you just switch to IS and go dominate? Sweep the Clans back to the Pentagon worlds in FW, go pick up an easy $55k for yourself in MWOWC. The weak Clan mechs must be sandbagging you FW and QP stats so bad!

So why don't you actually prove it. Your argument is that everyone who is otherwise out performing you just doesn't get it. Going to need some proof on that.

[Dogstar]

Khobai, on 08 November 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

yeah it still wouldnt be perfectly balanced... but its not like the game is perfectly balanced now anyway.

I kind of feel that this is what the PGI crew are thinking/saying to themselves in their offices as they work out balance changes.

Scene: PGI Offices on a Tuesday morning
Russ: Hey Paul hows aboot we try increasing medium laser cooldowns?
Paul: Yeah why not, it's not as of the game is balanced now!
Both: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Edited by Dogstar, 09 November 2017 - 05:07 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

MischiefSC, on 08 November 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Then you're bad at the game.

65 ton EBJ can run 9 MPLs easily. IS is happy to handle 6 or 7 and it's short range for a tiny fraction of a second shorter burn.

If you bump into the nose of a Dire Wolf that not an utter potato you're going to be happy to get away with 1/2 a mech left. If you nose bump an Anni you're probably below the arc of his torso guns and avoiding 1/2 his firepower.

Since clans are so inferior and every single comp player in MWO and every single top performing unit in comp and FW all clearly just don't understand how the game is played why don't you just switch to IS and go dominate? Sweep the Clans back to the Pentagon worlds in FW, go pick up an easy $55k for yourself in MWOWC. The weak Clan mechs must be sandbagging you FW and QP stats so bad!

So why don't you actually prove it. Your argument is that everyone who is otherwise out performing you just doesn't get it. Going to need some proof on that.

Most people are sheep. Ba-ah-ah-ah.
It's so nice ROFL stomping IS players that don't know how to build their mechs and then whine about. Nothing feeds my ego better than running around in my insta-win 9 mpl EBJ constructed of high quality glass and poo. Esp with those superior mount hitboxes that make shearing of its side torso such a chore.

Besides, I'll just use my KC and tear both the Anni and Dire an new one. Sigh.

Your seriously whining about the Annihilator. Get real.