23 replies to this topic

[BenAran]

I remember a couple of months back that Energy draw was on the test servers.
However, due to public demand it seems, it was shut down.
My question is:
Why? Ghost heat is a terribly inconsistent system, following now overarching rules.
I made a comment on it in a post and I can try working a preliminary solution out for people.
I am interested in making the game better, since I love mechs, so playing a mechgame is just a ******* dream for me.

[Nik Reaper]

Because it did 2 very wrong things at the same time, it was just a soft alpha cap instead of being an energy pool that recharges and limits energy fire, and second it was bundled with lock-less damage drop off, where if you don't target the thing you shoot you deal a lot less damage and mechs had reduced sensors and targeting profiles all jumbled in one PTS ...

Edited by Nik Reaper, 13 November 2017 - 06:33 AM.

[Appogee]

It was conceptually a good idea, which got subverted into a poor and complex design, and then had a bunch of unrelated InfoTech stuff added on, to become a complete mess.

It would have added added another unintuitive layer and HUD indicator on top of the already illogical ghost heat.

We are unlucky not to have had the basic original Energy Draw idea implemented - it could have replaced ghost heat and been a lot more logical and sensible. But we were lucky PGI didn't go ahead with the convoluted abomination that they eventually proposed.

Edited by Appogee, 13 November 2017 - 07:03 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

It was a bad system with good intentions. But it was so poorly done that it caused the exact opposite of what it was trying to achieve.

Not going to write you a paragraph over it, there's plenty of them out there from more experienced players that know the game better than myself in the old threads. You could actually find them if you wanted if PGI could be bothered to implement that search function almost every other forum has.

[Thorqemada]

And the participation on the PTS was so low and the imapct on the gameplay so big it would probably have upset many Players that feel totaly good how boating works bcs it is their favored playstyle anyway and everyone else that cant stand the way the game plays has become forumwarrior or lost in space anyway.

And at some point you (PGI) become a Victim of the remant payerbase - like EVE - and you can not do anything but let the Train run until Wreck!

Edited by Thorqemada, 13 November 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Nik Reaper, on 13 November 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Because it did 2 very wrong things at the same time, it was just a soft alpha cap instead of being an energy pool that recharges and limits energy fire, and second it was bundled with lock-less damage drop off, where if you don't target the thing you shoot you deal a lot less damage and mechs had reduced sensors and targeting profiles all jumbled in one PTS ...

they were to shy to give 3 heat penalty per energy drawn over the scale, thats why it never worked and failed in feedback. hell I could make higher alphas in my NVA than before because they REALLY screwed up the values. Could have worked with the higher penatly numbers.

[davoodoo]

Because it was mess during which it turned out weapons needed individual energy values which made it nothing but ghost heat with everything linked together.

If you heard complaining about gauss and ppc draining only 1:1 dmg then you knew it wouldnt work at all.

Edited by davoodoo, 13 November 2017 - 08:23 AM.

[process]

From what I experienced it was a convoluted and unintuitive system, despite having a stronger visual component in the HUD, that ultimately didn't seem to accomplish its goals.

At this point the only system I can see replacing ghost heat is to fix the heat cap at 30 to limit alphas for the majority of weapons, then impose strict group-fire limits for particular low-heat weapons, e.g. 1 AC20, 2 gauss, 3 AC10, etc. so that their damage potential doesn't exceed 30 per volley.

In other words, I don't see ghost heat going anywhere soon.

Edited by process, 13 November 2017 - 08:18 AM.

[Nightbird]

Good idea, bad execution always loses out to bad idea good execution.

[davoodoo]

Nightbird, on 13 November 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

Good idea, bad execution always loses out to bad idea good execution.

Thats your opinion.

I dont think bringing every mech down to lct1e lvls of alpha(also heat neutral in tt) is good idea.

Edited by davoodoo, 13 November 2017 - 09:16 AM.

[Mcgral18]

It was Ghost Heat Mk2, which is almost a shame


Instant penalty heat the moment you crest the threshold, and the same penalty we have now.
It was the same thing we had, only more restrictive.
It hurt Brawlers the most, laughably


The original TC overload would have been neat, soft penalizing Alphas, but what we got was just GH Mk2
Boring

[Bud Crue]

I liked it at first. No. To strong. I was indifferent at first, because I could sympathize with what PGI was trying to do (30 point cap) but I thought the way they were doing it was silly (we need an energy bar and a heat bar system...this game’s UI is barely functional with out adding more crap to it). That was the first PTS version, as they progressed with its iterations they added all sorts of downright absurd weapons nerf and buffs to the extent that by the final version it was impoossible to know if it was energy draw or the gutting of nearly every weapon in the game that was the basis of the system and which was affecting what, and how.

Alas, I think if it had replaced GH straight up, as opposed to trying to supplement it and then add a bunch of stuff on top of it, it might have been a reasonable system that the community could have gotten behind -at least a little bit- but the mess they made of it made that an impossibility. Only PGI however, can say what truly caused them to decide to pull it.

[Mole]

Why? Because, in typical PGI fashion, they took what was kind of a good idea and did it so wrong that it became a terrible idea. Many people referred to it as "Ghost Heat 2.0". It was that bad.

Edited by Mole, 13 November 2017 - 09:02 AM.

[Appogee]

Mole, on 13 November 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

Many people referred to it as "Ghost Heat 2.0". It was that bad.

Except, it was in addition to Ghost Heat 1.0 - not a replacement. That was the dumbest part of the whole fiasco.

[Khobai]

because having two separate draw systems was stupid and unnecessarily confusing

we already have a draw system: heat. thats what PGI should be focusing on fixing.

a properly functioning heat system supplemented by ghost heat mechanics should work fine to limit high damage alphas.

the problem with the heat system is the lack of heat penalties allows people to constantly keep their heat at like 90%. theres no incentive to keep your heat low.

Edited by Khobai, 13 November 2017 - 10:54 AM.

[Vonbach]

Why didn't it happen? Simple it would've been a clan nerf.

[JediPanther]

It sucked pain and simple. Many people would have left permanently if it had been added to live server. Google is your friend when it comes to finding old mwo posts. We can give pgi billions of ideas,which we have over five years time, but pgi has to make it work and the vast majority of the time they can't due to poor design and implementation. Or just just give up despite saying previously they had what ever problems starting to fix like IK.

[Brain Cancer]

Terrible implementation that didn't really seem to address the problem so much as it burned down everything for "balance", and managed to nearly hybridize it with a sensor system that might have been interesting, but got shoved in with everything else.

Basically the jump jet castration patch, only for weapons.

[Andi Nagasia]

BenAran, on 13 November 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

I remember a couple of months back that Energy draw was on the test servers.
However, due to public demand it seems, it was shut down.
My question is:
Why? Ghost heat is a terribly inconsistent system, following now overarching rules.
I made a comment on it in a post and I can try working a preliminary solution out for people.
I am interested in making the game better, since I love mechs, so playing a mechgame is just a ******* dream for me.

is started off good, but then too many things were changing too quickly to gauge properly,
the last verson of Energy Draw PTS had 19 weapon changes and some equipment changes,
too much was changing and people found it hard to see if anything had improved,
-
Energy draw was i feel, a good system, but it wasnt perfect, it did need work,
i hope we see it come back some day, as it would help with some of MWOs problems,

Nik Reaper, on 13 November 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Because it did 2 very wrong things at the same time, it was just a soft alpha cap instead of being an energy pool that recharges and limits energy fire, and second it was bundled with lock-less damage drop off, where if you don't target the thing you shoot you deal a lot less damage and mechs had reduced sensors and targeting profiles all jumbled in one PTS ...

not really, LLDD(Laser-Lock-Damage-Dropoff) was part of Info War PTS,
sadly LLDD killed info war, even though many of the things in Infowar were good additions,

[Khobai]

Quote

not really, LLDD(Laser-Lock-Damage-Dropoff) was part of Info War PTS,
sadly LLDD killed info war, even though many of the things in Infowar were good additions,

damage should dropoff if you dont have a sensor lock.

PGI shouldve implemented damage dropoff beyond optimum range for ALL weapons without sensor locks.

the problem is they halfassed it by only doing it for lasers which is what people hated. because it was a nerf to lasers specifically when it shouldve been a nerf to ALL weapons.

if weapons did 30%-50% less damage beyond optimum range without a sensor lock, it would not only make sensor locks much more important, but it would help curb the out-of-control long range meta.

if sensors were tied to damage and getting sensor locks actually mattered, and if assaults and heavies had worse sensors than lights and mediums, then lights and mediums would have a stronger role in the game as well.

sadly sensors dont really matter at all in the current game, which is not how it should be.

Edited by Khobai, 13 November 2017 - 11:02 AM.