53 replies to this topic

[VitiateDiabolus]

As a mirror to Racerxintegra2k thread about Inner Sphere laser vomit, I was curious what the current setup for Clan laser vomit is these days minus gauss. I recall it used to be a LPL plus ER mediums. Lately I've seen a lot of 2x Heavy Laser + ER mediums, is this basically the standard now?

[Trissila]

Base template is 2xHLL, 6xCERML.

Some people swear by CERLLs instead of the heavies, which gives you more range, less burn time, and less heat, but also a smaller alpha. This is really a matter of personal taste, as either option is viable.

[Grus]

imgur.com/a/2nkZ7

IS laser vomit op.. commando op... pgi plz nerf....

[Jay Leon Hart]

1-2 HLL with 3-6 ERML seems to be the tippy-top. With 'mechs than have more free tonnage than space (like the Nova Cat) 1-2 LPL with 3-6 MPL seem popular, too.

Then there's the brawl setup to replace SPLs. I've stuck with 8-12 ERSLs, but others swear by 6-10 HSLs.

[Dogstar]

Yeone had a really useful spreadsheet, I'll try and find a link

[Jay Leon Hart]

Dogstar, on 11 November 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

Yeone had a really useful spreadsheet, I'll try and find a link

This one from here ?

[Dogstar]

Yep: https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5900349

[Y E O N N E]

Worth pointing out that the max DPS and related stats are out of date with the nerfs to medium laser cooldowns. Otherwise, still accurate.

[El Bandito]

CMPL boating is a very heat efficient way to deal damage, such as the popular 7 CMPL HBK-IIC. My 9 CMPL EBJ is a deadly ride.

[MischiefSC]

El Bandito, on 11 November 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

CMPL boating is a very heat efficient way to deal damage, such as the popular 7 CMPL HBK-IIC. My 9 CMPL EBJ is a deadly ride.

Less so for poking but for a push build or, conversely, when you're receiving a push the MPL builds are hugely effective.

Otherwise it's HLLs and CERMLs. LPLs are 2 tons more for no real advantage. 50% less damage. Nothing that competes with the absolutely stupid damage HLLs do for 4 tons and one hardpoint.

With 7 damage cermls and 18 damage HLLs it's easy math. 1 HLL takes 3 slots and 4 tons. It does the same damage at the same range as 2 LLs for IS - at 10 tons and 4 slots. Only slightly more heat. DPS isn't as good and burn time is 0.3 longer. However it's utterly worth it as neither IS LL and HLL are poke, not push, so the longer cooldown isn't a big deal.

Thanks to smaller/lighter everything Clans can carry about 30% bigger firepower at the same mech tonnage and fit enough extra DHS to cool it. Because 33%smaller DHS and XL and 50%smaller endo/ff.

[Jackal Noble]

Yep, it should be pointed out at this point that tho C-ERML is still perfectly useable, due to the CD nerfs the CMPL is outright superior now with faster Cooldown and burn-times and a decent mid-range.

[Jackal Noble]

I mean other than that crazy long burn and heat sure, the HLL is fantastic. If you are against anything other than potatoes, lol no please. Also a better s-cat build is 2 lpl, 6 lmg, sans ecm.

[Mcgral18]

JackalBeast, on 11 November 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

I mean other than that crazy long burn and heat sure, the HLL is fantastic. If you are against anything other than potatoes, lol no please. Also a better s-cat build is 2 lpl, 6 lmg, sans ecm.

I'll go ahead and disagree

Higher Dam/tick on the HLLs means you get more effective AND MORE damage from them
You also get more ammo or heatsinks.

LPLs are bad now

Edited by Mcgral18, 11 November 2017 - 10:51 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Also, unless you are in a Locust or commando you physically don't move or twist fast enough to get 60-90 degrees away in less than 0.2 seconds. Assuming your reaction time is literally perfect human maximum, translating intent to movement at the same speed your nervous system can transmit.

HLL is a hugely powerful weapon, great damage/tic, alpha, even DPS. For 4 tons there's really no reason not to take at least 1 on any poke build.

[Y E O N N E]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 November 2017 - 05:44 AM, said:

Worth pointing out that the max DPS and related stats are out of date with the nerfs to medium laser cooldowns. Otherwise, still accurate.

Updated now.

[Seranov]

I wouldn't say Clan LPLs are bad, just that the HLL is super good. I mean, the LPL is better for brawling, if you want to actually try and do a laser brawler as a Clanner, but that's generally not sustainable or a good idea.

That said, yeah, the HLL pretty much does completely invalidate the LPL due to outclassing it in pretty much every metric except cooldown and optimal range.

[panzer1b]

Generally speaking, the current "meta" clan lasers are cERML, cERLL, cHLL, cERSL, and cMPL. The stereotypical mid range laser vomit at this point in time is 4-6 cERML with 1-2 large class lasers. The most common QP combos that ive seen are mostly 2cHLL+4cERML, or 1cHLL+6cERML, since they provide a good combo of alfa strike, DPS, and dont run as stupidly hot as the more competitive 2cHLL+6cERML versions which are all about single exposure poking at the expense of being a free kill if caught shortly after firing.

Worth mentioning is that cMPLs come into play very often when the build is more focused on agressive use since they run colder (despite taking more tonnage away from DHS), and provide very focused damage due to the shorter burn durations all while having a higher rate of fire and thus more burst and sustained DPS. Still, i wouldnt really call cMPL boats "laser vomit", because they dont really play the mid range poke role and thus are a slightly different playstyle even if they have some similarities.

As for the choice of large class weapon, the cHLL is byfar the most practical, since it offers the best alfa strike, has better heat eff then the cERLL, and despite its burn time, has better dmg/tick then the cLPL. The cERLL is a secondary choice, primary in situations where you cannot fit a cHLL due to slot limitations (head hardpoint, dual CT, or just have too many DHS to fit it otherwise). Ofc there are times where you want the extra range provided, or the better sync up with cERML (almost same burn time/reload), but cHLL is prolly a better choice for QP where most maps favor 400-600m engagements.. Finally, the cLPL is really bad right now (compared to the cERLL, its 2 more tons for less range, almost the same burn duration, and a bit extra DPS which is negligible and doesnt even benefit poke builds.

Edited by panzer1b, 11 November 2017 - 11:57 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Trissila, on 11 November 2017 - 02:02 AM, said:

Base template is 2xHLL, 6xCERML.

Some people swear by CERLLs instead of the heavies, which gives you more range, less burn time, and less heat, but also a smaller alpha. This is really a matter of personal taste, as either option is viable.

Some crazy people have even been running around with 3 ER LLs and ignoring ghost heat because you can shove 26+ DHS without an issue in clan mechs.

[MischiefSC]

Snazzy Dragon, on 12 November 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

Some crazy people have even been running around with 3 ER LLs and ignoring ghost heat because you can shove 26+ DHS without an issue in clan mechs.

I have a 3xerll, 4xcerml TBR I use on range maps. Works great.

[panzer1b]

Snazzy Dragon, on 12 November 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

Some crazy people have even been running around with 3 ER LLs and ignoring ghost heat because you can shove 26+ DHS without an issue in clan mechs.

Its not even that crazy to do if you want to not overexpose yourself. I almost always fire 3 and 3 on my MAD-2C with 30DHS since the ghost heat isnt a massive deal (its like firing 7 cERLLs instead of 6), and unless you are going for pure sustained DPS, there is literally no reason not to swallow the little bit of ghost heat and gain more focused precise damage with lowered facetime requirements.

Obviously if the map is very hot you want to fire 2 at a time, but on cold maps or single alfa pokeoffs, firing 3 cERLLs is almost entirely superior since its deadlier to the enemy and its still more sustained DPS then a IS ERLL boat when ur talking about 30 or so DHS.

Looking at the math behind it, 30 DHS with no map penalties is 4.8 heat/s, and with teh heat eff of ghost heat fired cERLL, it comes out to a sustained DPS of ~4.25, while the maximum reasonable number of DHS a IS mech can carry is ~22 which gives it 3.68 heat/s cooling, and a maximum sustained DPS of ~4.14 when using ERLLs only. In that regard, the clammer is still ahead by a teeny bit in raw DPS, while having more range, more alfa strike, and the ability to gain up to ~5.28 sustained DPS if the situation allows for firing 2 at a time. Yes some IS mechs have quirks which make the performance gap alot less then it is using the above math, but even then the most you can get out of a IS ERLL boat is ~4.6DPS (10% heat quirk), which is a good deal below the clammer when firing 2 at a time, and still close enough that the clammer can win single alfa trades when firing 3 and 3. That ofc assumes the IS mech has 6 ERLLs, and with that many ERLLs, im not even sure its possible to carry 22 DHS (not enough slots even with no endo/ferro which kinda requires a very lousy engine rating and thus makes you a turret while the clammer gets to go 70 or even higher while still having 30 DHS to cool those 6 ERLLs).

So yeah, in terms of lasers, clam is almost exclusively superior, more alfa, more DPS, more range, and post engine desync, there are very few IS mechs that can actually spread damage super well, and most of those are light enough that a 60+ alfa strike spread evenly across the torsos and CT is still gonna be a big deal (and the few that dont lack protection have anemic firepower without a XL).