39 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

How bad would it be? Would IS Battlemech overtake their Clan Omnimech counterparts? What other kind of problems would arise from allowing mix tech? Benefits?

Edited by MechaBattler, 13 November 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[Mole]

Well if they are going to allow mix tech they damn well better bring the Inner Sphere's quirks down to compensate for it. Otherwise there will no longer be any real reason to bring a clan 'mech.

[FupDup]

Mole, on 13 November 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

Well if they are going to allow mix tech they damn well better bring the Inner Sphere's quirks down to compensate for it. Otherwise there will no longer be any real reason to bring a clan 'mech.

Dragon 5N with triple superquirked CUAC/5's, juicy...

[suffocater]

It would be great if ALL quirks would be removed beforehand. After collecting some data some armor or so could be added to "underperforming" mechs. I would be in mech-heaven if I could combine C-XL engines with IS-AC20/C-LB10/20X, C-MPL and 2-slot DHS.

[MechaBattler]

Some mechs have quirks because they're not very good mechs regardless of faction.

[FupDup]

MechaBattler, on 13 November 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

Some mechs have quirks because they're not very good mechs regardless of faction.

Faction does play a part in it though.

For example, would mechs like the Kodiak, Mad Cat, and Hunchback IIC be given dumptruck agility if they had to use IS tech? I'm doubtful.

[BrunoSSace]

Well you can say good by to the IS Xl engine and hello Clan Xl.

Edited by BrunoSSace, 13 November 2017 - 04:09 PM.

[Composite Armour]

You mean if they allowed IS mechs to use Clan tech?

[Tarl Cabot]

BrunoSSace, on 13 November 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

Well you can say good by to the IS Xl engine and hello Clan Xl.

This and cDHS.. put some into me legs and CT...
And C-Endo/Ferro!!

But really, only a few mechs would really benefit from it because of hardpoint locations. Remember, most IS mechs are humanoid, most with mid to low hardpoint, and even the hardpoints in arms are scratching nether regions, and most do not have the hardpoint inflation Clan mechs have.....

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 November 2017 - 06:04 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Composite Armour, on 13 November 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

You mean if they allowed IS mechs to use Clan tech?

I fail to see much IS tech a Clan mech pilot would want to use, so yeah.

Doesn't take a crystal ball, to see that the end result would be everyone using Clan tech in a minimum of 95% of cases.

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 13 November 2017 - 05:38 PM.

[Revis Volek]

LT. HARDCASE, on 13 November 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

I fail to see much IS tech a Clan mech pilot \would want to use, so yeah.

Doesn't take a crystal ball to see that the end result would be everyone using Clan tech in 95% of cases.

AC20 and your SRMs



that is all.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

What would happen is that all of the following would become instantly obsolete and would never be used again:

LFE
IS XL
BAP
IS ECM
IS DHS
IS Endo
IS Ferro
IS Gauss and Light Gauss
IS ERPPC (possibly also SnPPC and standard PPC)
IS UAC2
All IS LBX types
All IS MG types
IS Flamer (lol)
All IS SRMs (a teensy bit more damage for twice the tonnage is not worthwhile)
All IS SSRMs
All IS LRMs (better frontloading but, again, the doubled tonnage and higher cost is nuts)
IS NARC
IS LAMS

All of the above are objectively inferior to Clantech, costing vastly more in tonnage or slots, dealing less damage, having shorter range, or being more vulnerable to damage (or some combination of those factors), while possessing no useful advantage over Clantech.

IS standard ACs and all UACs except the UAC2 would remain useful because they offer superior frontloaded damage to their Clan counterparts, despite costing more in tonnage and slots (all except the AC2, which only remains because it costs fewer slots, though I doubt anyone would use 'em anyway because... let's face it, AC2 sucks).

Heavy Gauss and Heavy PPC both remain because they have no Clan counterpart. If CERPPC were restored to its original state (15 PPFLD with no splash), however, HPPC would be rendered obsolete as well. LPPC stays around, but you still won't see many of them because they aren't that good.

RACs stay, also because they have no counterparts.

MRMs and Rockets, likewise, have no Clan counterpart (CSRM offers low-tonnage missiles, but not a massive single burst like RLs). MRMs might actually replace ATMs, since they fill the same niche (high damage short to midrange missiles) but MRMs offer greater flexibility because you can somewhat aim them.

Lasers would be situational. High-alpha poke builds would use Clan lasers exclusively, while brawler builds would likely retain IS lasers for their shorter beam durations. Some IS lasers would probably just go extinct, though: IS SL and ERSL, IS SPL, IS LL and ERLL.

Since any tech-mixing patch would likely eliminate the vast majority of IS structure, weapon, and armor quirks (the tech gap being the reason for those quirks existing to begin with), chassis selection would be based purely on hardpoint locations and hitboxes with no regard for IS or Clan techbase.

Tech mixing would absolutely ruin the game. I love my IS 'Mechs and I also love my Clan 'Mechs, but if they got together the resulting minmaxed meta-babies would be hideous.

[The Lighthouse]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 13 November 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

What would happen is that all of the following would become instantly obsolete and would never be used again:

LFE
IS XL
BAP
IS ECM
IS DHS
IS Endo
IS Ferro
IS Gauss and Light Gauss
IS ERPPC (possibly also SnPPC and standard PPC)
IS UAC2
All IS LBX types
All IS MG types
IS Flamer (lol)
All IS SRMs (a teensy bit more damage for twice the tonnage is not worthwhile)
All IS SSRMs
All IS LRMs (better frontloading but, again, the doubled tonnage and higher cost is nuts)
IS NARC
IS LAMS

All of the above are objectively inferior to Clantech, costing vastly more in tonnage or slots, dealing less damage, having shorter range, or being more vulnerable to damage (or some combination of those factors), while possessing no useful advantage over Clantech.

IS standard ACs and all UACs except the UAC2 would remain useful because they offer superior frontloaded damage to their Clan counterparts, despite costing more in tonnage and slots (all except the AC2, which only remains because it costs fewer slots, though I doubt anyone would use 'em anyway because... let's face it, AC2 sucks).

Heavy Gauss and Heavy PPC both remain because they have no Clan counterpart. If CERPPC were restored to its original state (15 PPFLD with no splash), however, HPPC would be rendered obsolete as well. LPPC stays around, but you still won't see many of them because they aren't that good.

RACs stay, also because they have no counterparts.

MRMs and Rockets, likewise, have no Clan counterpart (CSRM offers low-tonnage missiles, but not a massive single burst like RLs). MRMs might actually replace ATMs, since they fill the same niche (high damage short to midrange missiles) but MRMs offer greater flexibility because you can somewhat aim them.

Lasers would be situational. High-alpha poke builds would use Clan lasers exclusively, while brawler builds would likely retain IS lasers for their shorter beam durations. Some IS lasers would probably just go extinct, though: IS SL and ERSL, IS SPL, IS LL and ERLL.

Since any tech-mixing patch would likely eliminate the vast majority of IS structure, weapon, and armor quirks (the tech gap being the reason for those quirks existing to begin with), chassis selection would be based purely on hardpoint locations and hitboxes with no regard for IS or Clan techbase.

Tech mixing would absolutely ruin the game. I love my IS 'Mechs and I also love my Clan 'Mechs, but if they got together the resulting minmaxed meta-babies would be hideous.

My nova demands IS Mediums so it can do that 30+30 alpha strike without going into shutdown.

I doubt IS SRMs and LRMs would be that worthless. frontload damage is really, really juicy even with doubled weight.

That said, we had mixtech for more than 20 years until MWO arrived. Why would it suddenly be hideous if it merely comes back? Even lore went full mixtech for achieving 1:1 balance in the end.

[FupDup]

The Lighthouse, on 13 November 2017 - 06:15 PM, said:

My nova demands IS Mediums so it can do that 30+30 alpha strike without going into shutdown.

I doubt IS SRMs and LRMs would be that worthless. frontload damage is really, really juicy even with doubled weight.

That said, we had mixtech for more than 20 years until MWO arrived. Why would it suddenly be hideous if it merely comes back? Even lore went full mixtech for achieving 1:1 balance in the end.

I just want to clarify that mixtech isn't 1:1 balance. The IS stuff was still objectively inferior, you just got around that inferiority by never using IS tech anymore.

1:1 balance means that all of the tech is useful.

[Y E O N N E]

The Lighthouse, on 13 November 2017 - 06:15 PM, said:

That said, we had mixtech for more than 20 years until MWO arrived. Why would it suddenly be hideous if it merely comes back? Even lore went full mixtech for achieving 1:1 balance in the end.

Because IS tech is currently tuned to be slightly less-sh*t in the context of being stuck with itself and being able to throw 12x isML onto a Nova as you suggest along with the 20 DHS to cool them would be even more powerful than the cSPL ever was before the nerf.

I mean, unless mix-tech also means I can drop with a Nova while signed up for House Kurita...

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 13 November 2017 - 06:28 PM.

[Khobai]

mixed tech would ruin the game

[Nicodemus Rosse]

One of the reasons mixtech wasn't an insta-win in lore is that lots of Clan tech is really finicky and tightly machined, so pulling a Clan component out and stuffing it into an IS chassis is a bit like yanking the flight computer or main gun out of a modern F/A-18 Hornet and trying to make it work in a WWII-era Spitfire.

The sensors don't speak the same language, the electrical connectors are all different standards and voltages, the ammo feeds tend to jam, something in the autoloader needs a Clanner synthetic lubricant we can't get, the power relay keeps shorting out, the targeting computer can't get rangefinding solutions for Clan SSRMs right so it's always 11 meters off, and God help you if the laser's focusing array locks up one more time because you punched a Nightstar and Clan weapons aren't hardened for use in a melee.

And that's just the plug-and-play standardized components like weapons. Clan 'Mechs need actuators and engine parts and structural components that you can only find on the black market in the IS...at least, until the Diamond Sharks started selling them at a steep markup...and a lot of OmniMech parts won't work if you pull them out and try to install them on a Clan BattleMech chassis, even though they work fine in any Clan OmniMech in the arsenal. It's a huge headache.

Mixtech proposal:

After a FW battle where your side wins with a large match score advantage, you get a special salvage lootcrate that works like a Supply Cache, but you don't need a key. You spin it and get the one-time-only option to buy the resulting component at 2 x the normal C-Bill cost, and with the [MT] designator. Only weapon systems, sensors, and XL engines are available this way.

[MT] Any item with the [MT] designator has been retrofitted after being salvaged, and is difficult to properly maintain. After every battle with the 'Mech in which it is installed, you must pay 10% of its C-Bill cost (including ammunition) in upkeep or it is permanently destroyed and removed from your inventory. This upkeep is listed as a special consumable, and if you uncheck the box to auto-pay it then you'll get a "This component will be lost if you do not pay upkeep. Are you sure?" dialog after each match with that component.

Sure, you can put a cXL in your Battlemaster, but you'll be grinding C-Bills in other 'Mechs to bankroll dropping in it.

[Sjorpha]

Well, assuming quirks removed to avoid a total quirked-IS-chassis-with-clan-tech-meta then what would happen is that the best geometry and hardpoints on each side would be stuffed with clan tech and dominate the game, obseleting basically all IS tech.

It would "improve balance" in the same sense that phase 4 "solved" Faction Plays population problem. (consolidate the buckets but completely remove the point of playing for a faction, yay)

Remove all variety and flavor and obselete 50% of the equipment, some kind of balance would be achieved but it would be extremely boring, what is the point of having an IS mech balanced if it's effectively turned into a clan mech.

Mixtech is a horrible idea and the solution is to actually balance IS and Clan tech while keeping their separation and different flavour.

Edited by Sjorpha, 13 November 2017 - 11:01 PM.

[Vellron2005]

MechaBattler, on 13 November 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

How bad would it be? Would IS Battlemech overtake their Clan Omnimech counterparts? What other kind of problems would arise from allowing mix tech? Benefits?

Personally, I think mixing tech bases would take away from the uniqueness of mechs and tech bases themselves.

But I see no reason why we could not finally do mixed dropdecks?

I was kinda expecting this for Civil War.. but since we didn't get an actual civil war.. it didn't happen.

[visionGT4]

Khobai, on 13 November 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

mixed tech would ruin the game

The game was ruined mid 2014. I cant see how mixed tech can ruin it any further.

Ultimately mixed tech will be boring as hell and drive the game further down the path of stagnation BUT atleast it will mean a return of MWO being all about the mechs rather than techbase/difficulty selector