57 replies to this topic

[Chados]

You all need to listen to The Lighthouse because he or she is spot on.

Look what has become of the published tier rankings. When that crap started, there were those of us who warned that putting tier rankings on the forum would lead to tier shaming and lower tier players being told their opinions don’t matter. Nono, everyone hollered. We’ll be mature and won’t engage in e-peen measuring!

Feature implemented. E-peen stupidity immediately commenced and continues to this day. In fact, I predict that I’ll get tier shamed at some point in this thread because I dared to disagree with Taro, who I admit is an icon in the game, and I-a comparative nobody-refuse to show my tier ranking (for the record, and for those who just will *have* to know, I’m T2).

I used to freelance for simulation-related publications and I alpha-tested and beta-tested several classic flight simulation titles back in the early oughts-I’ve seen this kind of thing before. In gamer world, when implementing any feature like the one Taro proposes, you have to aim it at the lowest common denominator. Because there exists a significant number of gamers who are chaotic evil and always will reach for the lowest, trolliest, most chaotic griefer bullcrap they possibly can pull just because they get amusement from torturing other players. If there is a way that’s even remotely possible to abuse such a feature, it will be abused to glorious, overwhelming, excessive excess. We will ALL be downvoted to tier 5 before it’s over, Taro included. PvP games already are Lord of the Flies as it is. All this voting feature would do is further Balkanize the community and make it more toxic and salty.

[Methanoid]

Tarogato, on 15 November 2017 - 12:56 AM, said:

You really think this community is as toxic and vindictive as Dota? Dota and LoL are often cited as two of the most toxic playerbases in gaming.

Those games at least have a far healthier game population to back them up, those games could lose player figures literally hundreds of times more than MWO's total and not even care. using your DOTA2 example, its all time peak is 1.2million, our all time peak is 4111.

Basically they can afford to have toxic players, and they can easily afford to lose loads of players due to those toxic players, can we? nope...

[Asym]

Chados, on 15 November 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

You all need to listen to The Lighthouse because he or she is spot on.

Look what has become of the published tier rankings. When that crap started, there were those of us who warned that putting tier rankings on the forum would lead to tier shaming and lower tier players being told their opinions don’t matter. Nono, everyone hollered. We’ll be mature and won’t engage in e-peen measuring!

Feature implemented. E-peen stupidity immediately commenced and continues to this day. In fact, I predict that I’ll get tier shamed at some point in this thread because I dared to disagree with Taro, who I admit is an icon in the game, and I-a comparative nobody-refuse to show my tier ranking (for the record, and for those who just will *have* to know, I’m T2).

I used to freelance for simulation-related publications and I alpha-tested and beta-tested several classic flight simulation titles back in the early oughts-I’ve seen this kind of thing before. In gamer world, when implementing any feature like the one Taro proposes, you have to aim it at the lowest common denominator. Because there exists a significant number of gamers who are chaotic evil and always will reach for the lowest, trolliest, most chaotic griefer bullcrap they possibly can pull just because they get amusement from torturing other players. If there is a way that’s even remotely possible to abuse such a feature, it will be abused to glorious, overwhelming, excessive excess. We will ALL be downvoted to tier 5 before it’s over, Taro included. PvP games already are Lord of the Flies as it is. All this voting feature would do is further Balkanize the community and make it more toxic and salty.

Bingo we have a winner...... well said.
We are there. Look at this forum and see the scope of the disease.... This forum would be a great masters project in Epidemology to find patient zero! The only ones left here are those who "enjoy" what they do, yes?! For good or ill.... Only time will measure which were the most prevelant.

Edited by Asym, 15 November 2017 - 08:48 AM.

[Khobai]

its not that hard to fix

you just make matchscore the determining factor for if your ranking goes up or down

and you eliminate any matchscore loopholes that can be gamed

win/loss as a metric for ranking individual players doesnt work, because it allows bad players to parasite their way to tier 1. the impact that a single player can have on the outcome of a 12v12 is minimal so win/loss is not what should be used. matchscore should be used instead. matchscore better represents your contribution to the match than win/loss does.

top8 matchscore = go up in rank
middle8 matchscore = stay the same
bottom8 matchscore = go down in rank

so every game you play will result in an adjustment and unless you can continually perform in the top8 you wont advance. players will eventually get separated out into the tiers they belong... and stay there. Instead of this awful feel good system where literally anyone can get to tier1 just by playing enough games.

Edited by Khobai, 15 November 2017 - 08:58 AM.

[Nightbird]

Matchscore is meaningness today, too much weight on pure damage (trash damage) and AMS fire LOL

[jss78]

If we got this feature, I'd pilot a BattleMaster with an STD-400 and a single small laser, right until I was back at Tier 5.

[Khobai]

Quote

If we got this feature, I'd pilot a BattleMaster with an STD-400 and a single small laser, right until I was back at Tier 5.

theres nothing stopping you from doing that now

and you always had the option of making a smurf account

also I think higher tiers should earn greater rewards from playing. that would help discourage people
from dropping down to lower tiers to farm.

someone whos tier 1 is better than someone whos tier 5. and someones whos better should get paid more.

then theres incentive for bad players to git gud

Quote

Matchscore is meaningness today, too much weight on pure damage (trash damage) and AMS fire LOL

which is why I specifically said you eliminate the loopholes.

I would put a weighting system on damage so lethal damage is weighted to be worth more than trash damage. hitting people in the arms or legs with LRMs wouldnt be worth as much as nailing them in the CT with direct fire weapons. And backshots and headshots would be worth the most. Killing enemies efficiently would be rewarded more than farming them for damage.

and matchscore from AMS should be significantly reduced. Probably to like 10%-20% of what it is now.

matchscore can easily be turned into a metric for determining how skilled a player is without any potential to game it whatsoever.

Edited by Khobai, 15 November 2017 - 09:20 AM.

[jss78]

Khobai, on 15 November 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

theres nothing stopping you from doing that now

and you always had the option of making a smurf account

True, but with the current system, to get down from Tier 1 to Tier 5, even in the worst of 'mechs -- my life is too short for that.

I do have a late-night, Tier 4 derp account ... but I have a lot of premium content on this one, so it's not the same.

[Xiphias]

I just want a system that lets me flag players as "bad" or "good" so that I can see the tags at the beginning of the match and know I've got 8 potatoes on my team. It doesn't have to do anything and it can be stored locally on my computer for all I care.

[mogs01gt]

Tarogato, on 14 November 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

So you know when you have those matches where there's players on your team that deal like... 50 damage, or you spectate them and they obviously don't belong in your tier. Or you kill an enemy who just stands still in front of you chainfiring his medium lasers and blatting LRMs inside minimum range...
We should have the ability to report them for being bad. If you get enough votes callling you bad, it automatically bumps you down one tier rating. Votes only count against you if you also did bad in that match. So like... people can't troll you by trying to knock your tier rating down if you did say 500+ damage. Only counts if you actually did bad. Maybe it can bump you down a tier if you accrue enough downvotes, or maybe each downvote would only take a small nugget out of your PSR.
And do the same thing for good players. Got a troll alt account in your match? Report him for being OP. He gets enough votes... he'll bump up in PSR automatically. But the upvote only counts if he did really good in the match, like 600+ or 5+ kills.
Maybe introduce this system alongside a reputation system. So you can vote people post-match for good comms, or good teamwork, or drop calling, or being a nice polite dude, or ... being a crass stubborn dummy. What's the point? I dunno. But it'd be cute. Maybe titles and badges as rewards for getting good reputations, just a feel-good thing. Reps don't have to be displayed publically... but could be a toggle option, just like tier rating.
Okay, I admit, most of the reason I made this thread is because I wanted to reply to the other thread with the same name. But somebody decided they wanted to lock it... so I had to make a new one to post my idea. So... yeah. There's my idea, wheeeeee_eeeeeeee...

If we had a true tiered system and not just an exp bar, we wouldnt have these issues. I shouldnt and do not want to be in tier1.

[Mochyn Pupur]

An excellent idea to give the trolls power to further ruin people's day! Look at the last/current event and those who live under the bridge are to be found hiding at the rear moaning about folk trying to do their best and being focused down for negligible damage while the haters steal kills . . . Damage by itself means little - team play everything!

[DAYLEET]

Tarogato, on 14 November 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

So you know when you have those matches where there's players on your team that deal like... 50 damage, or you spectate them and they obviously don't belong in your tier. Or you kill an enemy who just stands still in front of you chainfiring his medium lasers and blatting LRMs inside minimum range...



We should have the ability to report them for being bad. If you get enough votes callling you bad, it automatically bumps you down one tier rating. Votes only count against you if you also did bad in that match. So like... people can't troll you by trying to knock your tier rating down if you did say 500+ damage. Only counts if you actually did bad. Maybe it can bump you down a tier if you accrue enough downvotes, or maybe each downvote would only take a small nugget out of your PSR.

And do the same thing for good players. Got a troll alt account in your match? Report him for being OP. He gets enough votes... he'll bump up in PSR automatically. But the upvote only counts if he did really good in the match, like 600+ or 5+ kills.

Maybe introduce this system alongside a reputation system. So you can vote people post-match for good comms, or good teamwork, or drop calling, or being a nice polite dude, or ... being a crass stubborn dummy. What's the point? I dunno. But it'd be cute. Maybe titles and badges as rewards for getting good reputations, just a feel-good thing. Reps don't have to be displayed publically... but could be a toggle option, just like tier rating.



Okay, I admit, most of the reason I made this thread is because I wanted to reply to the other thread with the same name. But somebody decided they wanted to lock it... so I had to make a new one to post my idea. So... yeah. There's my idea, wheeeeee_eeeeeeee...

The MM knows about tiering, it just doesnt enforce it. That guy you want to report isnt t1 or t2 and i seriously doubt hes t3. PGI cant improve the MM because they refuse to let it take the time required to make better games. Those games when you see the scoreboard and know before it has started that you either lost or won because all the big cheese are on the same side... the MM knows the stats and the numbers but it didnt even try. They wont enforce any rules that would make the game better. The very rules they implemented a long time ago to make the game a better one, they went out the window with the valving. PGI basically think its better that people find a 0-12 game under 2 minutes than take 6 or more for a more balanced match.

Its been long enough since we last rioted about waiting time, we learned our lesson, bring back the waiting.

Khobai, on 15 November 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

theres nothing stopping you from doing that now

That does not work. There was a guy always throwing his life away in an as7, every single match, for what seemed like a year. He still got carried 50% of the times because theres el;even other guy on his team. Its a myth that you can tank your ranking in QP.

Edited by DAYLEET, 15 November 2017 - 12:25 PM.

[DANKnuggz]

A step in the right direction for the tier system would be a more detailed analysis of what a "good" performance actually is and only getting a PSR bump when appropriate. As it is now a tater can be carried to victory and still get a bump to their PSR despite the fact that they contributed little to nothing to earn that victory.

[Daggett]

Tarogato, on 14 November 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

So you know when you have those matches where there's players on your team that deal like... 50 damage, or you spectate them and they obviously don't belong in your tier.

I could agree on the "Cheer good players"-part. But downvoting bad ones brings many problems.

Here are some examples:

• I'm running a light mech distracting half the enemy team while my assaults are pushing. I die to a lucky AC-20 shot and dealt only 20 dmg instead of the usual 400+, but my team steamrolls the confused enemy afterwards. Do they realize that it was a light mech whose distraction enabled the push? Do they remember which of the 3 or 4 light mechs it was? Do they even care what happened? Or do they just see: The only dead mech, only 20 dmg -> Downvote?
  
  
  My gut tells me that the latter one happens more often than not.
  
• I'm experimenting with strange builds like the Flamer Nova or Stealth Ghillie trying to make a fun video to entertain you, but my name's not B33f. While i try to master this mech (which can take several weeks of practice in the nova) i will fail miserably quite often. So i get punished regularly for practicing and trying things out in Quick Play until i get the hang of my mech? Where am i supposed to do this if not in the least competitive mode the game has to offer?
  
• My machine starts to lag suddenly after some matches without warning (this happens to me each day at least once). Spectator sees me retreating to cover too late and missing easy shots. So i'm a bad player that deserves punishing because MWO has a memory / performance leak on my machine which causes some matches to be an uphill battle?
  
  
  Given that spectator mode already has a built-in lag where it seems that people are aiming bad my machine can probably run just fine but some guys still vote me down for bad aim because they don't know that spectator lag differs from reality.
  
• My cat distracts me for example by jumping on my keyboard and i do weird moves while brawling, maybe even accidentially shoot a friend? Downvote, i'm a baaad player!
  
• I don't care for teamwork and just stay at my sniping / lurming position in my 100t assault mech while my team pushes. They get wrecked because my armor was missing, but the scoreboard tells 500 dmg. I pulled my weight, right? Ohh there is a 100 dmg player in an Atlas, let's downvote this worthless scumbag who cant lead a push!
  
• I'm a decent player who wants to do some seal-clubbing to get Guillotine, Ace of Spades or even Deathstar achievements. I play horribly intentionally to get downvoted into oblivion to arrive in griefer's heaven with my main account.

Do i need to continue?


Sure, you can adress some of those problems, but it would never be fair enough.
So wouldn't it be better to simply adjust PSR to make reaching and maintaining T1 a harder task than it is now?

Edited by Daggett, 15 November 2017 - 02:05 PM.

[Methanoid]

Xiphias, on 15 November 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

I just want a system that lets me flag players as "bad" or "good" so that I can see the tags at the beginning of the match and know I've got 8 potatoes on my team. It doesn't have to do anything and it can be stored locally on my computer for all I care.

even if you got what you want you can do nothing with it, its of zero use to you, so you know you have 8 potatoes on your team? what changes? nothing.

[Xiphias]

Methanoid, on 15 November 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

even if you got what you want you can do nothing with it, its of zero use to you, so you know you have 8 potatoes on your team? what changes? nothing.

I mentally prepare myself for what's to come, like when I get paired with bad teams in FW. I get the personal satisfaction of marking potatoes as bad at the end of each round. Also, I know which players aren't worth saving in my matches.

[Methanoid]

Xiphias, on 15 November 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

I mentally prepare myself for what's to come

Edited by Methanoid, 15 November 2017 - 02:54 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Daggett, on 15 November 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

I could agree on the "Cheer good players"-part. But downvoting bad ones brings many problems.

Here are some examples:

• I'm running a light mech distracting half the enemy team while my assaults are pushing. I die to a lucky AC-20 shot and dealt only 20 dmg instead of the usual 400+, but my team steamrolls the confused enemy afterwards. Do they realize that it was a light mech whose distraction enabled the push? Do they remember which of the 3 or 4 light mechs it was? Do they even care what happened? Or do they just see: The only dead mech, only 20 dmg -> Downvote?
  
  
  
  My gut tells me that the latter one happens more often than not.
  
• I'm experimenting with strange builds like the Flamer Nova or Stealth Ghillie trying to make a fun video to entertain you, but my name's not B33f. While i try to master this mech (which can take several weeks of practice in the nova) i will fail miserably quite often. So i get punished regularly for practicing and trying things out in Quick Play until i get the hang of my mech? Where am i supposed to do this if not in the least competitive mode the game has to offer?
  
• My machine starts to lag suddenly after some matches without warning (this happens to me each day at least once). Spectator sees me retreating to cover too late and missing easy shots. So i'm a bad player that deserves punishing because MWO has a memory / performance leak on my machine which causes some matches to be an uphill battle?
  
  
  
  Given that spectator mode already has a built-in lag where it seems that people are aiming bad my machine can probably run just fine but some guys still vote me down for bad aim because they don't know that spectator lag differs from reality.
  
• My cat distracts me for example by jumping on my keyboard and i do weird moves while brawling, maybe even accidentially shoot a friend? Downvote, i'm a baaad player!
  
• I don't care for teamwork and just stay at my sniping / lurming position in my 100t assault mech while my team pushes. They get wrecked because my armor was missing, but the scoreboard tells 500 dmg. I pulled my weight, right? Ohh there is a 100 dmg player in an Atlas, let's downvote this worthless scumbag who cant lead a push!
  
• I'm a decent player who wants to do some seal-clubbing to get Guillotine, Ace of Spades or even Deathstar achievements. I play horribly intentionally to get downvoted into oblivion to arrive in griefer's heaven with my main account.

Do i need to continue?



Sure, you can adress some of those problems, but it would never be fair enough.
So wouldn't it be better to simply adjust PSR to make reaching and maintaining T1 a harder task than it is now?

I agree with many of the points here in general, and they often come into my "why solo QP stats are dumb" reasons. But just quickly in response to point 2 in particular, if the game could place you based on whether you are testing a new mech it would probably be for the best, as no matter how good you are in general, you are bound to perform worse than normal in a new mech. Or possibly something like a rating for each class etc.