67 replies to this topic

[Glaive-]

I haven't had the time to play much, and I'm wonder what you guys think of ATMs currently?

They'd been out for quite awhile now, and PGI has been leaving them alone balance-wise for several patches now if I'm not mistaken. Which makes me a little nervous since they feel quite lackluster to me at the moment. Most of their characteristics just seem to scream "boat me", which quite honestly is the last thing I want to do.

How would you guys tweak them, if at all?
And on which mechs are they even worth while to take?

[InfinityBall]

The tweaks generally suggested for them are A) more hitpoints (because with their low number and long range, AMS eats them up) and some effectiveness under current minimum range

Whoever decided that B+) should be an emoticon should be slapped around with a fish

Edited by InfinityBall, 15 November 2017 - 09:46 PM.

[Darius Otsdarva]

They are countered pretty well by AMS, ECM, anything remotely tall enough to act as cover and getting in close to reduce their damage to zero.

But on the positive side they have a relatively straight flight path.

Seems balanced.

Edit:
Extra hit points per missile and tweaking the minimum range would be great for them.

Edited by Darius Otsdarva, 15 November 2017 - 09:52 PM.

[Trissila]

They are a weapon that has a number of hard counters (ECM, AMS, etc.), which is only worth taking over other weapons when used between 120 and 270 meters. So it's it's got a 150 meter usable window with a huge deadzone and requires lock-time.

Way, WAY too much finesse required for WAY too little payoff. They're only really worth it when boated, and can only truly be boated by 'mechs that absolutely cannot make use of that effective range window.

Consider that an ATM-9 weighs 5 tons and can do 27 damage between 120 and 270 meters. For that same 5 tons, you could bring 3 SRM-6s and do 36 damage out to 270 meters with no deadzone, no lock time, twice as many missiles to get through AMS, and double the velocity (which means fewer missiles shot down).

ATMs are only 'worth it' if you've got fewer missile hardpoints than available tonnage/space, and even then they're not great. You would almost always be better off packing SRMs instead.

Edited by Trissila, 15 November 2017 - 10:20 PM.

[Savage Wolf]

ATMs are great. They require a lot of movement to keep you in the golden zone of 120m to 270m, but if you succeed you are rewarded with awesome firepower. So expect for the HP vs AMS they are pretty spot on.

[lazorbeamz]

At onle time i used my hunchback 4g. I walked near a SNV with 4 ATM 12 and i took a hit. I instantly dropped from 100% to like 74% so yea ATM are mad.

[Nema Nabojiv]

armyunit, on 15 November 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

And on which mechs are they even worth while to take?

Mad Dog Prime and H and Huntsmans with C torsos. Maddogs can safely peak to get locks and have a cooldown bonus, and huntsmans have shoulder mounted tag and can poptart.

[Vellron2005]

I've tried ATMs, but so far, they are not very useful to me.

They do good damage, but the 120m minimum range really limits their effectiveness. Also, the semi-indirect firing nature makes their trajectories difficult to predict, so I need more practice with them.

I've noticed they do a lot better when paired with a TAG, but the absolute worst thing about them is that even s single AMS completely nulls them out, making them much less effective.

I still prefer LRMs, and even IS MRMs to ATMs..

[Phoolan Devi]

Trissila, on 15 November 2017 - 10:01 PM, said:

They are a weapon that has a number of hard counters (ECM, AMS, etc.), which is only worth taking over other weapons when used between 120 and 270 meters. So it's it's got a 150 meter usable window with a huge deadzone and requires lock-time.

Way, WAY too much finesse required for WAY too little payoff. They're only really worth it when boated, and can only truly be boated by 'mechs that absolutely cannot make use of that effective range window.

Consider that an ATM-9 weighs 5 tons and can do 27 damage between 120 and 270 meters. For that same 5 tons, you could bring 3 SRM-6s and do 36 damage out to 270 meters with no deadzone, no lock time, twice as many missiles to get through AMS, and double the velocity (which means fewer missiles shot down).

ATMs are only 'worth it' if you've got fewer missile hardpoints than available tonnage/space, and even then they're not great. You would almost always be better off packing SRMs instead.

Btw, ATMs do not need a lock, since you can dumb fire them.

[Paigan]

InfinityBall, on 15 November 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

The tweaks generally suggested for them are A) more hitpoints (because with their low number and long range, AMS eats them up) and some effectiveness under current minimum range

Whoever decided that B+) should be an emoticon should be slapped around with a fish

Like on all accounts.


On a personal note:
Since the the release of the new tech, I have checked the ATM stats a couple of times.
Every time, the result is:
Too heavy, too many constraints (optimal range, locks, missile-counters), too low damage potential for all the costs and constraints.

Long(er) range missiles are already rather bad as they are (or, as I prefer it: not bad per se, but very situational and hard to use with constant effectiveness). ATMs are just an even more complex variation of it.

(please don't post images of a single or maybe a handfull of matches with high damage and score via LRMs or ATMs now to counter my post. There are always lucky matches. The point is if they are reliably effective in a multitude of situations with as low complexity as possible and there the answer clearly is: rofl)

Edited by Paigan, 16 November 2017 - 01:31 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

I generally love ATMs the best on a Shadow Cat. It's high speed easily enables you to stay in the sweet zone of 120m to 270m (plus skills) and jump jets allow you to fire above cover. Arctic Wolf is also great for the same reasons.

[SeventhSL]

They are defiantly workable as is.

If I was being picky then..... I'd like a slightly higher arc to help on non jump jet Mechs and a little more ammo per ton.

2xATM12 on a Mad Dog Prime works well due to the velocity quirks and the ability to mount decent backup lasers.

Edited by SeventhSL, 16 November 2017 - 01:38 AM.

[Paigan]

Phoolan Devi, on 16 November 2017 - 01:11 AM, said:

Btw, ATMs do not need a lock, since you can dumb fire them.

And how effective and efficient are they when you dumb fire them beyond their minimum range?
You'll spread and waste even worse than an LRM-20. Might as well just fit an AC2 or a medium laser if you want to dumb fire a swarm of missiles.

[Troa Barton]

Not very fond of them personally, they weigh too much, don't get enough ammo per ton, AMS hard counters them, and their minimum range makes them irritating to use.

[Savage Wolf]

Paigan, on 16 November 2017 - 01:36 AM, said:

And how effective and efficient are they when you dumb fire them beyond their minimum range?
You'll spread and waste even worse than an LRM-20. Might as well just fit an AC2 or a medium laser if you want to dumb fire a swarm of missiles.

Works just fine on enemies that have shut down. And Annihilators.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

They're the coolest weapon in the game. Interestng mechanics makes them stand out and be OP or UP depending on the situation and your ability to play to the weapon's strengths at the given moment. High risk, high reward.

ATMs are what all weapons in the game should look like, i.e. top effectiveness scaled to the weapons 'difficulty' and drawbacks. Unfortunately, the go-to weapon 90% of the time are lasers, that are at the same time the easiest weapon to use and have basically no drawbacks. Some bad design choices right here.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 16 November 2017 - 02:20 AM.

[Slambot]

ATMs are excellent weapons. They are not, for all their max range, best used at long range. They are best used at 200-300 m and are excellent for firing over the lips of hills. They take some getting used to, but they can do massive damage when used properly.

[Xavori]

The only change they need is more hit points per missile. AMS is a total counter for them at the moment.

Other than that, they work pretty well. Better range that LRM's albeit with very poor indirect fire ability paired with incredible damage up close (2xATM12=72 points of damage and not much heat for that damage).

So in fights where the other team has a single 3xAMS mech, or a few mechs with AMS, I get bleh damage, but in the rest, I'll put up 700+ easy.

[Xetelian]

Not a great weapon system. One AMS significantly cuts your damage and maybe two completely eliminate all your missiles.

I put 3xATM9 on my MKII 4 and while I have had some good games I can't say they've been great to use.

I'm flirting with the idea of putting some on one of my TBR but I rarely touch my TBRs and don't feel very motivated towards it.

At longer ranges you're better off with an LRM
At optimal range you're better off with an SRM and range nodes to bring them up to 302m

The window in between the two, where you do a little more than an LRM but not more than an SRM, you just don't have enough missiles to really melt faces.




Changes:

• More HP per missile
  
• Faster missile speed
  
• Similar minimum range scaling to LRMs
  
• Damage scaling downwards instead of sharp drop offs in damage at specific ranges.
  
• Higher arc of flight

Not all of that has to be done but a few of those changes would help make this a weapon system worth taking and give it a unique place between LRMs and SRMs.


I feel like ALL the new tech weapons (MRMs, RACs and ATMs) they error-ed way to hard on the side of caution and they all came out rather pathetic.

[arcana75]

I love ATMs, esp when I'm second line and in a mech with JJs. Poptarting ATMs is amazing. It's just not that good 1v1, if your opponent knows what your loadout is and closes in.