67 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

So assuming they are the HE ammo type with the 3/2/1 and 0 3 6 9 range profile. That could be alleviated with switchable ammo ;-)

[Nema Nabojiv]

JackalBeast, on 16 November 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

So assuming they are the HE ammo type with the 3/2/1 and 0 3 6 9 range profile. That could be alleviated with switchable ammo ;-)

Like that switchable ammo we have for LB-Xs now? Yeah that will help for sure.

[- World Eater -]

I haven't been able to make ATMs work.

[Humpday]

Man, try as I might I can't get them to work for me.
I hate to say it, but I'd rather take LRMs so I can at least pummel people over buildings.
Atms, you gotta stare at the dude for a while, or have to have something agile enough such that you can pull lock while you're still in cover then expose real quick, snap the shot off, then get back.

Its a pretty technical weapon to use if you ask me.

I don't quite like them to be honest. I saw a shadowcat using them very effectively though...well, mainly because he wouldn't leave me alone and kept zipping around taking pop shots at me.

Also, they are hot, heavy and have an atrocious cooldown. So trying to put them on faster mechs is a bit of a challenge.

I've tried a linebacker, my Novacat-B and i think maybe huntsman...never got them to work, though i see the potential of them.

Edited by Humpday, 16 November 2017 - 11:11 AM.

[davoodoo]

I shouldnt really bash them becaus i made 700 dmg 4 solo kills with 2x atm9 acw on scouting.

But really besides some flashes of brilliance they just cant be effectively put to work.

[Snazzy Dragon]

They're even more difficult to do half decent with after the lock on angle change. Coupled with their long cooldown, low health per missile, few missiles per volley, intensive weight and heat (even for a clan mech), spread damage, and minimum range, they're not very great at killing anything other than terribads.

They're still significantly better than LRMs though and it can be fun for pugging it up.

[ESC 907]

The only loadout of ATMs that I feel worth it is bringing 2+ ATM12s. The smaller launchers just aren't worth it. What with all of them having 5s cooldowns, there's no point in bringing say... 6x3's on a MDD-A? Just bring a Prime with 2x12's! The only exception I have is my 1 Cougar with 2x9's.

[Remover of Obstacles]

Nema Nabojiv, on 16 November 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

I think it would have been ok if they'd do 1 damage in below 120 range. Plain 2 damage at all ranges is nothing special and will certainly remove that sweet 'get rekt' feeling from them.

I agree. Plain 2 damage at all ranges would eliminate ATMs as a viable weapon.


Compare an ATM12 with LRM10 and LRM 15.


ATM12 - 7 tons - 5 slots - 9 heat - 5 second cooldown - damage 12/24/36/ZERO inside 120 meters

LRM25 - 6 tons - 3 slots - 9 heat - 4/4.3 second cooldown - damage 25/still does damage inside 180 meters

If they nerf the damage, there will be no reason to use the heavier and bulkier ATMs.


Currently the only reason to use ATMs is if you expect to play in the 120 to 300 meter range or if you really, really, really like the ATM sound effect.


ATM3 vs LRM5 is about the same. The 3.5 second cool down more than offsets the slight damage difference (3/6/9/zero at 5 seconds vs 5 at 3.5 seconds) at all ranges except 120-300.

[Trissila]

Remover of Obstacles, on 16 November 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

I agree. Plain 2 damage at all ranges would eliminate ATMs as a viable weapon.


Compare an ATM12 with LRM10 and LRM 15.


ATM12 - 7 tons - 5 slots - 9 heat - 5 second cooldown - damage 12/24/36/ZERO inside 120 meters

LRM25 - 6 tons - 3 slots - 9 heat - 4/4.3 second cooldown - damage 25/still does damage inside 180 meters

If they nerf the damage, there will be no reason to use the heavier and bulkier ATMs.


Currently the only reason to use ATMs is if you expect to play in the 120 to 300 meter range or if you really, really, really like the ATM sound effect.


ATM3 vs LRM5 is about the same. The 3.5 second cool down more than offsets the slight damage difference (3/6/9/zero at 5 seconds vs 5 at 3.5 seconds) at all ranges except 120-300.

Yeah, I mean... really, the SNV-A is the only 'mech where ATMs have any real merit, because you have the tonnage, the (lack of) hardpoints, and the room to justify boating 4xATM-12s.

Take the MDD-A, which has three hardpoints in each torso, can carry 2xATM-12 and 2xATM-6... or 6xLRM-15, for the same tonnage.

The ATMs fire 36 missiles for 36/72/108/0 damage, while the LRMs fire 90 missiles for 90 damage, and still do something under 180.

If you do not fire your ATMs in the 3 damage sweet-spot, you've wasted your tonnage compared to just bringing LRMs. And even in the sweet-spot, you're getting all of 18 more potential damage, except even then not really, because each missile shot down by AMS hurts you three times as much as with the LRMs, and there's WAY fewer missiles to be shot down.

[Khobai]

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I agree. Plain 2 damage at all ranges would eliminate ATMs as a viable weapon.

not if you also removed the min range and gave them a 50% health increase

they would still be quite viable

and they would be more in the spirit of the weapon instead of a ridiculous 120m-270m niche weapon which is not what ATMs should be

Edited by Khobai, 16 November 2017 - 07:41 PM.

[R Valentine]

Their extreme vulnerability to AMS needs to be addressed. One AMS can cut down 9 ATMs, which is an entire volley for anything but a 12(obviously). The lock nerf sucked. "Waaaaaaaaah, we don't want you to be able to curve ATMs around terrain!" Uhm, that's the only advantage they have over direct fire. You can't decide where they land and if you have to take the time to face lock, you're getting your butt shot off while waiting for the stupid reticle to turn red. Firing over and around terrain is the only thing they have going for them, aside from raw damage, and that damage can be spread easily. Also, the spread nerf was totally unnecessary. Not like you can't twist away a lot of the damage since the missiles are staggered like all clan missiles are.

[Remover of Obstacles]

Khobai, on 16 November 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

not if you also removed the min range and gave them a 50% health increase

they would still be quite viable

and they would be more in the spirit of the weapon instead of a ridiculous 120m-270m niche weapon which is not what ATMs should be

I agree the minimum range makes no sense.

But at 2 damage per missile, even with a health bump - why wouldn't you just take lighter, less bulky and cooler SSRMs or LRMs depending on what range you want to engage at.

[Khobai]

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But at 2 damage per missile, even with a health bump - why wouldn't you just take lighter, less bulky and cooler SSRMs or LRMs depending on what range you want to engage at.

because ATMs would still have better range than SRMs or SSRMs. ATMs would also give you better damage per hardpoint than SRMs/SSRMs. So on mechs with limited missile hardpoints, ATMs would still be preferred.

and theyd stlil be much more effective under 180m than LRMs.

the whole point of ATMs is to be a versatile jack-of-all-trades weapon system.


It should work like this:
SRMs/SSRMs = best missiles for short range but cant do long range
LRMs = best missile for long range but cant do short range
ATMs = good at both short range and long range (but not as good as SRMs or LRMs in their specialized ranges)

so yeah. 2 damage at all ranges. no min range. 50% more missile health. mostly fixed.

Edited by Khobai, 16 November 2017 - 08:22 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Any weapon with a minimum range, especially one this long, is always going to be bad.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 16 November 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

because ATMs would still have better range than SRMs or SSRMs. ATMs would also give you better damage per hardpoint than SRMs/SSRMs. So on mechs with limited missile hardpoints, ATMs would still be preferred.

Mechs with limited hardpoints would either get 4 lurms 10/15
or not take missiles at all when they have less than 4.

[Khobai]

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Mechs with limited hardpoints would either get 4 lurms 10/15
or not take missiles at all when they have less than 4.

lurms are useless under 180m though

the whole reason youd take atms over lurms is for their usefulness under 180m

which is why the min range on atms needs to be removed. lrms should not be better than atms at close range. thats really stupid.

atms should essentially be lrms that give up the ability to indirect fire in exchange for not having a min range.

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Mechs with limited hardpoints would either get 4 lurms 10/15

Okay say you take four LRM15s+Artemis. Thats 18 tons. You also need at least 4 CERML to protect yourself under 180m too. Lets also say you need 2 tons of ammo per launcher minimum. Thats 30 tons. So thats 60 damage at long range from the missiles and only 28 damage at short range (under 180m where youre going to be using lasers).

Or you could take four ATM9s and eight tons of ammo for 28 tons. At 2 damage per missile thats 72 damage at long range (but much harder to indirect fire) and 72 damage at short range (and no min range).

Were assuming you chainfire both the LRMs and ATMs to avoid ghost heat.


So yeah im not really sure what youre saying. If you want to specialize long range youll take LRMs. If you want to specialize more short to medium range youll take ATMs. Both would have a place.

ATMs at 2 damage with no min range and 50% missile health would be perfectly fine

Edited by Khobai, 17 November 2017 - 10:44 AM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 17 November 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

lurms are useless under 180m though

the whole reason youd take atms over lurms is for their usefulness under 180m

Thats why you really dont bring atms and ssrms at all...

[Khobai]

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Thats why you really dont bring atms and ssrms at all...

people dont use ssrms because they hit random locations and are only good against light mechs. it has nothing to do with their range which is actually pretty decent at 360m. SRMs and SSRMs need their damage increased for both clan and IS. short range weapons should be brutal and theyre not.

and people would absolutely use ATMs if they were 2 damage and had no min range. I already explained why. Because they still hit like a truck at short range even at 2 damage.

Like my example shows above, four LRM15s and four lasers dont hit even remotely close to as hard as four ATM9s at short range. And the ATMs still retain the option to hit things at long range although with some additional restrictions due to their lower firing arc.

that achieves the goal of making ATMs a versatile all-purpose jack-of-all-trades missile which is what theyre SUPPOSED to be.

Obviously laser vomit would need to be addressed too to make clan missiles more appealing in general. But my guess is large lasers and medium lasers will likely be linked for ghost heat in the next balance patch.

Edited by Khobai, 17 November 2017 - 10:57 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 17 November 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

people dont use ssrms because they hit random locations and are only good against light mechs. it has nothing to do with their range which is actually pretty decent at 360m.

Which brings question why IS streaks have only 270 against 360 meters range in addition to their other drawbacks.

[Khobai]

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Which brings question why IS streaks have only 270 against 360 meters range in addition to their other drawbacks.

well they do fire twice as fast