189 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

FupDup, on 18 November 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

The bonus heatsinks are probably for your secondary weapons (like a brace of medium lasers), assuming you aren't a 100% pure [U]AC/5 boat.

How about a comparison for the Clan side of things? Their UACs have a higher jam rate, and their regular ACs don't have lower tonnage to compensate for lower burst damage (they're also bulkier instead of smaller, opposite of IS ACs).

These charts are kind of a pain in the arse to make. Also, I don't think I even have cAC's in my stats reference.

But if you let me know some exact comparisons you'd like, I'll do them easy enough. Like skill tree yes/no/specific? or quirks yes/no/which,? and coolshot yes/no, which sizes, and how many each gun, how many heatsinks, all the d33tz

[The Lighthouse]

Dakota1000, on 18 November 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

ITT: man is completely oblivious to the concept of facetime and burst DPS.

Very funny, are you trying to say UAC has better facetime than AC?

Go grab UAC10 and AC10 and shoot, which one does take longer to fire shots? Why do those mechs with typical PPC + Ballistic do not use UACs unless you are using Clan mechs?

And why are you trying to use burst DPS for UACs, when there are other far better alternatives?

Tarogato, on 18 November 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

For me I go for the UAC because that burst damage is higher, especially with the coolshot. This means you can kill an enemy faster, cutting out his damage output earlier before he has a chance to do more. Also, it means if you die from focus fire before going deep into heatcap, you will have put out more damage in that amount of time with UACs - you realised more of your potential. Of course, that's all true for competitive. But for solo and shenanigans, you aren't fighting the heat cap as often, though just having the double-taps and higher burst DPS still seems like a no-brainer to me. There's rarely the situation where I want the better sustained DPS in excess of 30 seconds at the expense of getting an extra ~50+ damage out in the first 30 seconds.

Also, just generally speaking, the double-taps are nice to get your damage concentrated at times when the enemy is twisting. When he faces you, you *can* get a double-tap all on the same hitbox, whereas the standard AC doesn't quite give you that flexibility.

I have no idea how that's calculated. But based on what I've seen so far, I'd hazard to guess it would have no appreciable effect. Same goes for the environment heat multipliers, I don't know what they are, off hand.

Duh, that's a big issue here. So the graph does not account both mech movement heat and environment heat.

This graph really only works for super cold maps.

And to be honest, if you are going to mention coolshots, then the odd really goes to lasers at that point.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 18 November 2017 - 08:06 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

Tarogato, on 18 November 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

These charts are kind of a pain in the arse to make. Also, I don't think I even have cAC's in my stats reference.

But if you let me know some exact comparisons you'd like, I'll do them easy enough. Like skill tree yes/no/specific? or quirks yes/no/which,? and coolshot yes/no, which sizes, and how many each gun, how many heatsinks, all the d33tz

I don't think there is any need to compare clan cACs and cUACs, when Clan cACs are basically just worse weapon that cUACs. Same tonnage and takes 1 MORE slots than cUACs. Like if I were to just holding mouse button, I still have to use cUACs.

The reason why cACs are takng more slots is because you can change ammunition type. So it is justified in TT, but not even close in this game.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 18 November 2017 - 08:13 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Khobai, on 18 November 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

theres nothing wrong with giving facetime and doing burst dps as long as youre killing enemies faster than they kill you

thats the whole principle behind how ballistic assaults operate

ballistic assaults can crush pretty much any mech in the game 1v1 because their dps is higher than anything else

but in 1vMany situations theyre not very good because they cant outdps multiple mechs at the same time

OP's entire premise stands on using the same mech with otherwise same build but one has UACs and the other has ACs without accounting for the tonnage or heat that each generate so that he can run a cohesive build. In general only after 30 seconds of continuous fire does the UAC end up being beaten by the AC due to heat concerns.

UACs offer a player potentially much higher burst DPS than an AC so that they can kill the enemy quickly and avoid taking a large amount of return fire over time. The ACs end up winning in a theoretical very prolonged engagement, but in practice the bursts of fighting never last that long and you'd be much better served by the weapon with higher burst damage.

Using a UAC boat such as the Kodiak with its 2 UAC10s and 2 UAC5s, you'd obviously bring in a good amount of heatsinks to allow for higher sustain due to being an assault built for that purpose. In fights I've been able to cut down 3 mechs one after the other without the use of coolshots and still not be overheating, after that point there was no one left to kill in the area. ACs would have just gotten me killed due to not having the required damage output in the limited amount of time, aka burst damage.

[Tarogato]

The Lighthouse, on 18 November 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

And why are you trying to use burst DPS for UACs, when there are other far better alternatives?

And to be honest, if you are going to mention coolshots, then the odd really goes to lasers at that point.

While lasers are always going to have the better upfront super short burst DPS, dakka is *supposed* to catch up in sustain very quickly. That includes standard and ultra ACs. Your observation is completely right though... which is why laservomit is the predominant meta, and has been cemented as such ever since the skill tree came in, which granted better buffs for laserboats than any other type of build, combined with nerfs to dakka and SRMs. There really is not much reason to run dakka anymore when you can burst things down earlier with laservomit. There's still edge cases for dakka coming out on top, but they're a lot more niche than they used to be, both in terms of situations, and viable chasses. =/

Quote

Duh, that's a big issue here. So the graph does not account both mech movement heat and environment heat.

Dig up how mech movement heat is calculated, and what the environmental multipliers are, and I'll gladly slot them in. =D

[Khobai]

Quote

And why are you trying to use burst DPS for UACs, when there are other far better alternatives?

And to be honest, if you are going to mention coolshots, then the odd really goes to lasers at that point.

Only because the weapons arnt balanced properly.

when it comes to burst dps, only rotary ACs should beat out UACs.

Quote

While lasers are always going to have the better upfront super short burst DPS, dakka is *supposed* to catch up in sustain very quickly.

Of course but lasers are also pretty unbalanced and likely to get nerfed by having large lasers and medium lasers linked for ghost heat

They did it with Gauss/PPC. No reason to think Large Laser/Medium Laser wont happen next.

Quote

UACs offer a player potentially much higher burst DPS than an AC so that they can kill the enemy quickly and avoid taking a large amount of return fire over time. The ACs end up winning in a theoretical very prolonged engagement, but in practice the bursts of fighting never last that long and you'd be much better served by the weapon with higher burst damage.

doesnt make much sense to base your results around theoretical prolonged engagements that rarely happens.

thats similar to saying machine gun spam is the absolute best because it does high dps and never overheats.

but the reality is most fights dont last long enough for the fact that machine guns dont generate heat to actually matter.

thats why I dont buy this crap that UACs are strictly worse than ACs. Its not true.

but I still think double tapping and jamming mechanics need to be removed from the game and UACs should just be normalized into higher DPS versions of ACs.

Edited by Khobai, 18 November 2017 - 08:29 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The Lighthouse, on 18 November 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

Very funny, are you trying to say UAC has better facetime than AC?

Go grab UAC10 and AC10 and shoot, which one does take longer to fire shots? Why do those mechs with typical PPC + Ballistic do not use UACs unless you are using Clan mechs?

And why are you trying to use burst DPS for UACs, when there are other far better alternatives?

I'm stating that you aren't taking into account the facetime that is required for these findings to really matter. In battles in mwo you generally aren't just staring at an enemy for 30 seconds straight firing continuously, at least I hope no one on the enemy team would allow you to do that in T1, so this means that between ACs and UACs you never really should be hitting the heat problems of the UACs in most fights.

I state burst DPS as the effective DPS that you have during that engagement, its entirely different than PPFLD damage, as you reference, and the raw DPS value given in mechlab.

Say for example a battle lasts 5 seconds and you have a single AC20, an AC20 has a raw DPS of 4, but in 5 seconds you fire instantly first, then after 4 seconds you have fired again, in those 5 seconds you did 40 damage, which would be 8 burst DPS, double that of the raw DPS.

This sort of thing is why trading builds focused around burst damage try to minimize trade time as much as possible so that they do something like 78 damage in 2 seconds of expose time for 39 burst DPS. However, if I were using quad UAC5s I'd have time for 4 cycles during that 2 seconds with my double taps, allowing for 80 potential damage in that time while normal ACs would have their potential capped at 40. Basically the potential is just lower on ACs but ACs offer consistent results that, while consistently lower, do end up over taking the UACs in theoretically extra long battles between mechs that have more armor than any in the game.

For these reasons the UACs generally offer better performance in match than ACs.

Khobai, on 18 November 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

doesnt make much sense to base your results around theoretical prolonged engagements that rarely happens.

thats similar to saying machine gun spam is the absolute best because it does high dps and never overheats.

but the reality is most fights dont last long enough for the fact that machine guns dont generate heat to actually matter.

thats why I dont buy this crap that UACs are worse than ACs.

but I still think double tapping and jamming mechanics need to be removed from the game and UACs should just be normalized into higher DPS versions of ACs.

Exactly what I'm saying in my posts.

Edited by Dakota1000, 18 November 2017 - 08:30 PM.

[Tarogato]

Dakota1000, on 18 November 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

I'm stating that you aren't taking into account the facetime that is required for these findings to really matter. In battles in mwo you generally aren't just staring at an enemy for 30 seconds straight firing continuously, at least I hope no one on the enemy team would allow you to do that in T1, so this means that between ACs and UACs you never really should be hitting the heat problems of the UACs in most fights.

Realistically, you can easily get into an engagement in excess of one minute just by the virtue of not having your heat fully deplete. You can fire for 15 seconds, hide for 5 or 10, poke out and fire for 15 more second, hide again... ad nauseam. You don't have to be staring at the enemy unrelentingly for 30 seconds or longer... as long as your heat doesn't reach bottom, even if you're not shooting, then you will still be at the mercy of your dissipation rate in the long term.

Sustained DPS for hotter dakka boats really is more like "how long do you have to wait to cool between bursts."
That said, ultras are a little more amenable to burst-n-fade, while standard ACs have to stare comparatively longer before their heat runs up.

Remember, if your heat ever hits bottom, you're just wasting potential.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Tarogato, on 18 November 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

Realistically, you can easily get into an engagement in excess of one minute just by the virtue of not having your heat fully deplete. You can fire for 15 seconds, hide for 5 or 10, poke out and fire for 15 more second, hide again... ad nauseam. You don't have to be staring at the enemy unrelentingly for 30 seconds or longer... as long as your heat doesn't reach bottom, even if you're not shooting, then you will still be at the mercy of your dissipation rate in the long term.

Sustained DPS for hotter dakka boats really is more like "how long do you have to wait to cool between bursts."
That said, ultras are a little more amenable to burst-n-fade, while standard ACs have to stare comparatively longer before their heat runs up.

Remember, if your heat ever hits bottom, you're just wasting potential.

In those minute long engagements you aren't firing your weapons the whole time due to going in and out of cover or not having an open target at various points, further reducing the impact of the higher heat of the UAC and increasing the impact of the UAC's higher burst DPS.

[Mole]

I have not read the entire contents of this thread but I am going to add my anecdotal evidence to it. I ran much a similar test, though with a different 'mech. I have a Victor that runs on AC/2s. I know a number of you are going to laugh at that but I cannot deny the results that I get in it. At any rate, when new tech came out it had its XL engine replaced by a LFE to increase its survivability and I also thought that I could increase its DPS by replacing the AC/2s with UAC/2s. Well let me tell you that it was a massive waste of CBills is what it was. While I found that the larger caliber UACs were reliable enough to justify taking them into matches I found that the same was not true for UAC/2s. They jammed so often that it was a regular occurrence for ALL of my cannons to be jammed at the same time, rendering me completely unable to fire for several painful seconds, and after testing it numerous times by shooting at the turrets that tell you how much damage you have done to them that I was reliably able to pump out more damage in the same amount of time with regular AC/2s than I was with UAC/2s because the UAC/2s just spent so much time being jammed. Of course, I could just hold down the button instead of double-tapping and then it would operate as if I had regular AC/2s, but at that point why would I pay the extra tonnage for the ability to practically instantly jam my weapon who's only strength is its fast firing rate? UAC/2s are going to need a lot of love from PGI before they become worth taking.

Edited by Mole, 18 November 2017 - 09:29 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Tarogato, on 18 November 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

Here's some actual numbers I got from taking the mathematical approach. Always assuming 10 DHS.


Skill trees I used for reference:
AC tree: https://tarogato-mwo...79-c77064078119
UAC tree: https://tarogato-mwo...79-270b669b101a
- difference is the UAC gets 15% jam time, and the AC gets extra 0.75% cooldown and 1.5% heat.





Skill tree vs none (no quirks)

Skill tree (dark) vs no skills (light/faded)








Quirks vs none (with skill trees)

Quirks (dark) vs no quirks (light/faded)
The quirks are 20% jam chance and 10% cooldown







Sorry if the axes are inconsistent. I didn't think to set them up ahead of time, and a couple of the lines end early.

The problem is that the UAC only gets that consistent line on an average; in individual events it swings between 2x damage and 0 damage. If you're boating, say, 3xUAC5 as your primary weapons that means you've got 5 seconds of 0 damage - long enough to take 120+ damage from the enemy on a jam.

Also you don't get the benefit of the curve out beyond 10 seconds because almost universally any boated UACs will heatcap you long before you get into a place where you're consistent and reliable in more damage. It's also hotter than 5 CERMLs - with, almost for certain, no real extra DHS.

Can you put a relative heat curve and approximate heat cap point?

So for example AC5s at 0.9 heat/second, UAC5s (in the heat relative version) at 2.0 hps - whatever their reduction is for relative jam downtime.

Edited by MischiefSC, 18 November 2017 - 10:03 PM.

[Tarogato]

MischiefSC, on 18 November 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

The problem is that the UAC only gets that consistent line on an average; in individual events it swings between 2x damage and 0 damage. If you're boating, say, 3xUAC5 as your primary weapons that means you've got 5 seconds of 0 damage - long enough to take 120+ damage from the enemy on a jam.

You can torso twist and/or duck to cover in that 5 seconds of dealing zero damage. When you're back online, you've got burst to make up for lost time. Whereas the standard AC boat has to be facetiming the entire time, and if they choose to back down and twist away, they don't have burst potential to make up for lost time.

Quote

Also you don't get the benefit of the curve out beyond 10 seconds because almost universally any boated UACs will heatcap you long before you get into a place where you're consistent and reliable in more damage.


Can you put a relative heat curve and approximate heat cap point?

So for example AC5s at 0.9 heat/second, UAC5s (in the heat relative version) at 2.0 hps - whatever their reduction is for relative jam downtime.

I don't understand what you're asking.

[Trissila]

Khobai, on 18 November 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

yeah but conversely UACs win in SHORT brawls (if they dont jam)

ultimately what makes UACs a stupid weapon is that their usefulness is entirely dependent on RNG and whether they jam or not

which is why jamming should just be removed from the game completely. Because the risk of jamming is simply not worth the potential reward of not jamming.

remove double tapping. remove jamming. just make UACs work like standard ACs that do higher dps but have less damage per shot, less range, and less velocity. then both have a place in the game without the tyranny of RNG mechanics.

I agree with this if you always double-tap, but the value of UACs, in my view, is that it's an option. You can single-fire UACs if you want. It's less heat-efficient than regular ACs, and if you're on the IS side it's also less tonnage/space efficient, but you have the option of operating them like normal ACs if you need consistency, or double-tapping if burst is more valuable to you.

This is where I was going with the 2 PPC, 2 UAC/10 MAD-IIC-A example. When you're poking with the PPCs, you can double-tap the UACs alongside it for maximum alpha, or when enemies close distance and pressure you, you can just hold the UAC trigger to single-fire them for decent backup damage -- and since you're carrying extra heatsinks for the PPCs, the extra heat over normal ACs isn't much of a downside.

Admittedly, clantech complicates it by having clan UACs weigh the same and actually take up less space than normal ACs, but the operational functioning is the same.

[Troa Barton]

Khobai, on 18 November 2017 - 03:39 AM, said:

IMO they need to remove the double tap and jamming mechanics completely and normalize UACs. RNG is crap and doesnt belong in the game.

UACs should work like standard ACs but with 20% higher DPS, 40% lower damage per shot, 20% lower range, and 20% lower velocity

For example:

AC2 = 2 damage, 0.72 cooldown, 840m range, 2000m/s velocity
UAC2 = 1.2 damage, 0.36 cooldown, 700m range, 1800m/s velocity (never double taps and never jams)

AC5 = 5 damage, 1.66 cooldown, 720m range, 1550m/s velocity
UAC5 = 3 damage, 0.83 cooldown, 600m range, 1300m/s velocity (never double taps and never jams)

I would love it if they did this, never a fan of RNG in strategy / combat games.

[lazorbeamz]

Ahaha.

*no nonon uac are super trash because it jams on 1st shot i will never ever take UAC and you shouldnt too!*
*presented with maths*
*i mean yes ofc they are better for burst damage before they overheat we already knew that !*

Khobai, on 18 November 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

yeah but conversely UACs win in SHORT brawls (if they dont jam)

ultimately what makes UACs a stupid weapon is that their usefulness is entirely dependent on RNG and whether they jam or not

which is why jamming should just be removed from the game completely. Because the risk of jamming is simply not worth the potential reward of not jamming.

remove double tapping. remove jamming. just make UACs work like standard ACs that do higher dps but have less damage per shot, less range, and less velocity. then both have a place in the game without the tyranny of RNG mechanics.

When you miss your AC shots that makes AC a stupid RNG weapon, too lol. Their usefulness depends on RNG and whether you hit or not, whether the convergence works or the opponent mech suddenly starts moving in a diffirent direction.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 19 November 2017 - 03:36 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

The Lighthouse, on 18 November 2017 - 08:11 PM, said:

I don't think there is any need to compare clan cACs and cUACs, when Clan cACs are basically just worse weapon that cUACs. Same tonnage and takes 1 MORE slots than cUACs. Like if I were to just holding mouse button, I still have to use cUACs.

The reason why cACs are takng more slots is because you can change ammunition type. So it is justified in TT, but not even close in this game.

Thats wrong clan AC 10 is super heat effective, even much more then an IS AC10. It is more heat effective then any weapon bar the gauss. That is their forte. You choose them for more damage per heat. Or less heat per damage

Edited by lazorbeamz, 19 November 2017 - 03:48 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

Dakota1000, on 18 November 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

OP's entire premise stands on using the same mech with otherwise same build but one has UACs and the other has ACs without accounting for the tonnage or heat that each generate so that he can run a cohesive build. In general only after 30 seconds of continuous fire does the UAC end up being beaten by the AC due to heat concerns.

UACs offer a player potentially much higher burst DPS than an AC so that they can kill the enemy quickly and avoid taking a large amount of return fire over time. The ACs end up winning in a theoretical very prolonged engagement, but in practice the bursts of fighting never last that long and you'd be much better served by the weapon with higher burst damage.

Using a UAC boat such as the Kodiak with its 2 UAC10s and 2 UAC5s, you'd obviously bring in a good amount of heatsinks to allow for higher sustain due to being an assault built for that purpose. In fights I've been able to cut down 3 mechs one after the other without the use of coolshots and still not be overheating, after that point there was no one left to kill in the area. ACs would have just gotten me killed due to not having the required damage output in the limited amount of time, aka burst damage.

What do you think about KDK 3 with 4xuac10? I know the stupid ghost heat hurt this build but can you actually play it?

[lazorbeamz]

Mole, on 18 November 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I have not read the entire contents of this thread but I am going to add my anecdotal evidence to it. I ran much a similar test, though with a different 'mech. I have a Victor that runs on AC/2s. I know a number of you are going to laugh at that but I cannot deny the results that I get in it. At any rate, when new tech came out it had its XL engine replaced by a LFE to increase its survivability and I also thought that I could increase its DPS by replacing the AC/2s with UAC/2s. Well let me tell you that it was a massive waste of CBills is what it was. While I found that the larger caliber UACs were reliable enough to justify taking them into matches I found that the same was not true for UAC/2s. They jammed so often that it was a regular occurrence for ALL of my cannons to be jammed at the same time, rendering me completely unable to fire for several painful seconds, and after testing it numerous times by shooting at the turrets that tell you how much damage you have done to them that I was reliably able to pump out more damage in the same amount of time with regular AC/2s than I was with UAC/2s because the UAC/2s just spent so much time being jammed. Of course, I could just hold down the button instead of double-tapping and then it would operate as if I had regular AC/2s, but at that point why would I pay the extra tonnage for the ability to practically instantly jam my weapon who's only strength is its fast firing rate? UAC/2s are going to need a lot of love from PGI before they become worth taking.

Thts because you RTFM first, buy second. UAC 2 are indeed useless. They offer like 5% increase in DPS and a laughable increase in alpha strike because guess what AC2 and UAC 2 do only 2 damage per shot. EXTRA 2 ALPHA STRIKE!!! If you re talking UAC 10/20 its another story.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 19 November 2017 - 03:56 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

lazorbeamz, on 19 November 2017 - 03:50 AM, said:

What do you think about KDK 3 with 4xuac10? I know the stupid ghost heat hurt this build but can you actually play it?

KDK-3 back before they pretty much raised its ghost heat factor by somewhere between 500 and 1000% was pretty good with quad UAC10s. I'd very often just fire them through ghost heat to double tap 80 points of damage into an enemy 2 or 3 times in a row, at which point they'd definitely be dead. After the ghost heat nerf I decided to go with the 60 damage of double tap rather than taking the extra second worth of time splitting up my shots to avoid ghost heat every time I want to fire. Quad UAC10 works, but its so much worse than what it was that it disgusts me now, much like the Chassis itself with its mobility nerfs.

Kodiak really doesn't have any heat issues if you avoid the ghost heat since it can just fit a lot of heatsinks anyway if you bring an XL375 rather than the 400.

[Seranov]

Troa Barton, on 19 November 2017 - 01:03 AM, said:

I would love it if they did this, never a fan of RNG in strategy / combat games.

I, too, would prefer the RNG get taken out of it, but the suggestion he is making 100% invalidates why UACs are good. Shorter cooldown means MORE facetime, not less, and therefore you have to stand there and take any return fire in order to do your better DPS. Turning UACs into slightly burstier RACs will see people stop using them entirely, just as RACs are effectively a novelty weapon since they are just not good at anything but shaking cockpits.

Sustained damage is pretty much completely worthless in this game outside of brawling. In order to do it, you need to be exposed to the enemy, and that means they can shoot you. The longer they can shoot you, the sooner you will lose components, and obviously, the sooner you will die. And when you're dead, you can't do any damage. So the UACs, which allow you to do more damage in a shorter window, are much better for trading and peeking, but are unreliable and hotter, making them not as good in a brawl. The regular IS ACs are much better for brawling, due to lower heat and higher reliability, but are definitely worse in terms of trading and peeking. And then there are the regular Clan ACs, which are just not good at anything. At least you can fit Clan LB20Xs in arms.